10mm vs Bear

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Please close the thread since i barely got any good answers.

Thank you to the people that did stay on topic.
 
Hmm, one way to handle this

HOW BOUT THIS
BOX-O-TRUTH.com

If someone will pony up the money and/or ammo, and be kind enough to define the parameters of the test, I am sure that they would be happy to spend your ammo on a series of practical test.

Kodiak could you forward a haunch of bear or at least guide this to a definitive measurement of what must be penetrated,

then the rest of yall can send your favorite pill (bullet) to see how it really does.

Either that or we could move this over to the Mythbusters site and start an uproar to get them to shoot an episode on it.

It boils down to this, smaller caliber (this even includes rifles) less energy, the more important shot placement.

And this is why you carry pepper spray (bear spray) as you have a much larger effect area and target, I will take a 15' cone at 30' to 45' and some blow back to trying to dump a mag of 10mm in 1-2 seconds to hit a moving target the size of a silver dollar.
 
What amazes me here is all this discussion about which round penetrates more than another round but no one is asking what is really relevant.

That is, will the round penetrate a Brown Bear adequately to stop them? It don't matter if one round shoots through more than the other as long as they shoot through a bear, right?

I think you will find most of the cartridges discussed from 12 gauge slugs made for bear to .45/70 to .350 magnums to .458s, especially since we are talking defense against bear that means short range, 25 yards or closer.

And thus most of them will work fine. And since many of the agencies in Alaska use 12 gauge shotguns with slugs, well at least for that weapon we know it’s used.

Deaf
 
That is, will the round penetrate a Brown Bear adequately to stop them? It don't matter if one round shoots through more than the other as long as they shoot through a bear, right?
Click to expand...

And full circle to - going through the bear doesn't mean you stop it. You have to put one through the brain pan and you have to do that FAST.
 
And full circle to - going through the bear doesn't mean you stop it. You have to put one through the brain pan and you have to do that FAST
Click to expand...

So a 12 gauge through the brain pain won't stop it?

Or are you saying a 12 gauge won't penitrate that far?

Or a 12 gauge is to slow or kicks to muich to fire that accuratly?

Or what?

Deaf
 
Please close the thread since i barely got any good answers.
Click to expand...

I read through the whole thing, and the problem seems to be that "Bear" can be interpreted as

1. The little 200-300lb black bears
2. The larger 800 lb grizzly bears

And "make a good shot" can be interpreted as

1. Hit the bear somewhere in the boiler room
2. Hit a bobbing target the size of a 3x5 index card coming at you at 35 mph

I believe that those with actual bear experience contributed something about the importance of stopping a bear, which is different from simply killing one. And also something about "odds", which means just because some lucky individual managed to do it doesn't mean you are going to be able to.

I'm not sure what you were expecting, but I saw considerable effort put into trying to answer this unanswerable question. Even the arguments about sectional density were interesting.

Surely you are aware that questions that look like "What's the ... for bear?" are going to start something... :)
 
Prove it. I show you tests that prove that velocity is unimportant, that a heavy sixgun slug can penetrate as deeply as a heavy rifle, you say "you're wrong". I show you penetration tests done with slugs that are far superior to your Brenneke that only penetrate as well as medium weight sixgun bullets and you just ignore it. I show you handgun hunters, you say "you're wrong". I discredit your tests as incomplete, you say "you're wrong". I give you the testimony of a professional bear guide/gunwriter, you say "you're wrong". I come to conclusions based on factual data, you say "you're wrong". All you have done is say "you're wrong". With zero evidence to support it. Simply saying "it works, people have done it" ain't good enough.
Click to expand...

The issue is that you feel, because of your belief that sectional density is the end all and be all of ballistic measuring sticks, that the 12 gauge slug performs as well as the 357mag 110gr bullet in lethality, not that some random large caliber gun performs just as well against bear, or better or that the 45/70 is some sort of demigod able to stop charging bear. I have never said/wrote that the 45/70, 475 Linebaugh or any of the heavier handgun and rifle rounds will not work on bear,i carry a Blackhawk in 45colt loaded with Buffalo Bore 325 hardcast lead rounds all the time in the woods and feel comfortable and well armed.

The issue is you have apparently decided that a 12gauge slug has never and will never be good to use in self defence against bear, going against the mountain of evidence that it has worked, just do an internet search with bear and 12 gauge slugs and see how many things pop up. Now do another and see how many pop up using the 357mag 110gr against a bear. Im willing to bet that there will be a lot of accounts of the 12 gauge slug being used effectively and very little if any using the 357mag 110gr bullet.

The reason why we are saying you are wrong over and over again is because you are. 12 gauge slugs have been used successfully, and will be again against bear. Many have used them, its not a new round.

Also im gonna ask you this point blank once again: Do you believe that the 12 gauge slug has almost the exact same lethality as a 357 magnum firing a 110gr bullet on a bear? If you do, you're going against logic,fact, and experience. If not, this proves that Sectional Density isnt the end all and be all of measuring stick for lethality.

Seriously if you want to do absurd links to junk math, i can prove that Global Warming is caused by lack of pirates,do you really want to go there?

Man this is like proving the sky is blue to a stubborn blind man, it just is regardless of personal perspective.
 
i can prove that Global Warming is caused by lack of pirates, do you really want to go there? :eek: :scrutiny:



Mods Please, Please freeze this thread. It just keeps getting weirder and weirder.



The OP should start a new thread sense this one has fallen in the gutter.
 
So a 12 gauge through the brain pain won't stop it?

Or are you saying a 12 gauge won't penitrate that far?

Or a 12 gauge is to slow or kicks to muich to fire that accuratly?

Or what?
Click to expand...

None of the above. A shotgun (in my opinion) is the perfect weapon because it's designed for fast point/shoot and with a slug is accurate and powerful enough to turn a bears brain into jelly at close range.
 
Mods Please, Please freeze this thread. It just keeps getting weirder and weirder.
Click to expand...

Its actually a fairly common example of how you can prove nearly anything with junk math. If you guys are actually interested ill post some links.
 
KodiakBeer said:
None of the above. A shotgun (in my opinion) is the perfect weapon because it's designed for fast point/shoot and with a slug is accurate and powerful enough to turn a bears brain into jelly at close range.
Click to expand...
True, a long arm of sufficient power is always superior to a handgun in a self defense situation. Handguns are a compromise of portability and to some degree power. 12 guage with big pills (no pistol grip) is much easier to control by anybody, trained or not in a "Oh Crap!" bear situation
 
I agree wholeheartedly with your "no pistol grip" advice; just a simple sporting shotgun with a short barrel is probably the best choice - or a big bore carbine like a Marlin GG.
 
The reason it's getting warmer due to the pirates, is that the gasses given off by the previously hidden caches of Aztec Gold, interacts with the atmosphere and produces a mixture of goldoxide dust that blocks the heat next to the planet.

and YES. I am hijacking this thread.
 
The reason it's getting warmer due to the pirates, is that the gasses given off by the previously hidden caches of Aztec Gold, interacts with the atmosphere and produces a mixture of goldoxide dust that blocks the heat next to the planet.
Click to expand...

Are you making fun of the Pastafarian belief?:fire::what:

Heres a link with proof that yes, Global Warming is caused by lack of pirates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
 
I once arrested a pirate on the high seas (yeah, I really did!), but neglected to check the temps afterward...

I now regret that very much.
 
I once arrested a pirate on the high seas (yeah, I really did!), but neglected to check the temps afterward...

I now regret that very much.
Click to expand...

You have made his Supreme Noodliness unhappy with you. Prepare to meet the wrath of his Noodly Appendange.

R'amen
 
dam kodiak i see you in every bear thread ;) you should just put for your signature, that a 12 guage carbine is the perfect bear weapon lol
 
Greg528iT said:
The reason it's getting warmer due to the pirates, is that the gasses given off by the previously hidden caches of Aztec Gold, interacts with the atmosphere and produces a mixture of goldoxide dust that blocks the heat next to the planet.

and YES. I am hijacking this thread.
Click to expand...
...but depending on what kind of Pirates they are...if they are Butt Pirates, the gas has an entirely different origin. Lol!
 
For once kodiakbeer im inclined to agree that the shotgun you just showed is very ideal for bear country its light and small. For now ill stick with my colt python ;)
 
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