12 gauge HD ammo?
- Thread starter beeenbag
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1stmarine
Member
kev778
Member
I use #4 buck 3" magnum
soonerboomer
Member
#1 Buck!
But, I'm considering trying out this interesting load. Basically, it fires two 400 grain .65 caliber lead balls at 1200 fps.
But, I'm considering trying out this interesting load. Basically, it fires two 400 grain .65 caliber lead balls at 1200 fps.
jiminhobesound
Member
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- Jan 8, 2011
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Why would you use slugs in a HD shotgun? Seems that it negates the advantage of the shotgun.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Big hole.
Provides the opportunity to be a little surgical if necessary.
Possibly more effective against body armor?
Turns household cover into concealment?
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Jeff82
Member
1stmarine,
Those links suck. One's an advertisement that proves nothing and the other is written by a neophyte that has the ignorance to mention in his first sentence that a shotgun "fires multiple projectiles, the chances of hitting an attacker are greatly increased." BS. Particularly at home defense distances.
And just what is "microcrystalline wax" and how does it compare to the human body? Without knowing this his results are meaningless.
Those links suck. One's an advertisement that proves nothing and the other is written by a neophyte that has the ignorance to mention in his first sentence that a shotgun "fires multiple projectiles, the chances of hitting an attacker are greatly increased." BS. Particularly at home defense distances.
And just what is "microcrystalline wax" and how does it compare to the human body? Without knowing this his results are meaningless.
1stmarine
Member
The 00 buck shots are a great ammunition but in order to reduce risk and potential liabilities the other loads are more than plenty for home defense at the typical range. The average civilian doesn't have the privilege or opportunity to clear an entire area, empty an entire apartment building before they put themselves in a situation where might need to use lethal force.
These type of loads have been tested many times. Manufactures spend the time and money to make sure they are effective. A few loads come to mind. Remington Home Defense, Hevi-shot Personal Defense, T-Shots, BB mixed with #4 (which is virtually the same). These are not "bird loads". At the ranges we are talking about high velocity loads are devastating. Anything that penetrates so much that goes all the way through several layers of clothing + a human torso and keeps flying is energy waisted. Until a round is invented to quickly do a 180(turn around) and strike again then I will use what I think is enough. If I didn't have any other priorities I would use the most lethal system I could get.
The FBI doesn't have much data on some new tactics so they cannot provide the information they do not have. Even the manufactures are starting to collect more statistics on this. The principal is simple, if possible leave the closest to the 100% of the energy in the target. Also frangible ammunition is an old concept but newly implemented for the scenarios we are talking about.
My preferred load all my life both in the service and after retired was the 00buck until I tested these. I did some research, talked to many about this and tested the loads.
As soon as people stay open minded, think about it, and test whatever they feel is better for their situation, the possibilities are endless.
I feel in my circumstances, where I live with people in my house, and my neighbors close by, I need to be very careful.
The best way to mitigate risk is to just simply do that.
Cheers,
E.
Pat Green of Youngstown , NY Date posted: 10/11/2010So far from what I can tell, these are awesome little loads even though I haven't had a chance to do any formal pattern testing yet. I got these to bring along in the field in case I run into a coyote or fox at close range. I did a little pattern test with a 24 inch piece of cardboard, and at 20 yards, all of it's pellets were within 10 inches. I shoot an 870 express magnum and a Kicks High Flyer ported extended modified choke. They also buried themselves quite deeply into the tree behind it. although these were designed as personal defense loads, these will also make a real good predator load for guys who have a 2 3/4 inch chamber. Penetration seems to be on par or slightly better than #4 lead buckshot with more pellets per shell. These will really wreck somebody's day whoever is on the receiving end of these at close range. For in the home defense, where 00 or 000 buckshot might over penetrate, these would be perfect. Oh, one other great thing about these rounds is the recoil or lack there of. The recoil is comparable to a low brass trap load so fast follow-up shots are much quicker and easier. These would also be a great choice for those recoil sensitive shooters predator hunting with a shotgun. all in all, great load. Look forward to do more pattern testing with them. If I can play around with chokes and tweak the pattern more, I don't think I'll need to beat myself up with magnum buckshot while shot gunning for coyotes anymore. Update 10/14/2010 Just an update to my previous review. I had a chance to do some formal pattern testing, and well, needless to say, I am quite impressed. I got 7 pellets in a 6 inch circle and 21 pellets in the 14x14 inch target. For a load that starts out with only 35 pellets, this is phenomenal. Keep in mind this is with my extended modified waterfowl choke. Not a "dead coyote" or full, or turkey choke. Past 40 yards the pellets seem to disperse pretty quickly so 40 yards is the max for these shells at least with this choke tube. These will absolutely roll a yote at that range with no questions asked. All with the recoil of a heavy trap load. couldn't ask for more.
These type of loads have been tested many times. Manufactures spend the time and money to make sure they are effective. A few loads come to mind. Remington Home Defense, Hevi-shot Personal Defense, T-Shots, BB mixed with #4 (which is virtually the same). These are not "bird loads". At the ranges we are talking about high velocity loads are devastating. Anything that penetrates so much that goes all the way through several layers of clothing + a human torso and keeps flying is energy waisted. Until a round is invented to quickly do a 180(turn around) and strike again then I will use what I think is enough. If I didn't have any other priorities I would use the most lethal system I could get.
The FBI doesn't have much data on some new tactics so they cannot provide the information they do not have. Even the manufactures are starting to collect more statistics on this. The principal is simple, if possible leave the closest to the 100% of the energy in the target. Also frangible ammunition is an old concept but newly implemented for the scenarios we are talking about.
My preferred load all my life both in the service and after retired was the 00buck until I tested these. I did some research, talked to many about this and tested the loads.
As soon as people stay open minded, think about it, and test whatever they feel is better for their situation, the possibilities are endless.
I feel in my circumstances, where I live with people in my house, and my neighbors close by, I need to be very careful.
The best way to mitigate risk is to just simply do that.
Cheers,
E.
Pat Green of Youngstown , NY Date posted: 10/11/2010So far from what I can tell, these are awesome little loads even though I haven't had a chance to do any formal pattern testing yet. I got these to bring along in the field in case I run into a coyote or fox at close range. I did a little pattern test with a 24 inch piece of cardboard, and at 20 yards, all of it's pellets were within 10 inches. I shoot an 870 express magnum and a Kicks High Flyer ported extended modified choke. They also buried themselves quite deeply into the tree behind it. although these were designed as personal defense loads, these will also make a real good predator load for guys who have a 2 3/4 inch chamber. Penetration seems to be on par or slightly better than #4 lead buckshot with more pellets per shell. These will really wreck somebody's day whoever is on the receiving end of these at close range. For in the home defense, where 00 or 000 buckshot might over penetrate, these would be perfect. Oh, one other great thing about these rounds is the recoil or lack there of. The recoil is comparable to a low brass trap load so fast follow-up shots are much quicker and easier. These would also be a great choice for those recoil sensitive shooters predator hunting with a shotgun. all in all, great load. Look forward to do more pattern testing with them. If I can play around with chokes and tweak the pattern more, I don't think I'll need to beat myself up with magnum buckshot while shot gunning for coyotes anymore. Update 10/14/2010 Just an update to my previous review. I had a chance to do some formal pattern testing, and well, needless to say, I am quite impressed. I got 7 pellets in a 6 inch circle and 21 pellets in the 14x14 inch target. For a load that starts out with only 35 pellets, this is phenomenal. Keep in mind this is with my extended modified waterfowl choke. Not a "dead coyote" or full, or turkey choke. Past 40 yards the pellets seem to disperse pretty quickly so 40 yards is the max for these shells at least with this choke tube. These will absolutely roll a yote at that range with no questions asked. All with the recoil of a heavy trap load. couldn't ask for more.
Deus Machina
Member
I used to keep #4 in mine because I'm in an apartment.
Then I shot it, realized I don't have to worry about putting things where I don't want them, couldn't find any more #4, and now they're all 00 reduced-recoil buck.
Yeah, slugs may be more effective against armor, but no place in my apartment is too far to shoot at the head or thigh instead, and I'm doubtful that any burglar in an Iron Man suit could make it up the stairs.
Then I shot it, realized I don't have to worry about putting things where I don't want them, couldn't find any more #4, and now they're all 00 reduced-recoil buck.
Yeah, slugs may be more effective against armor, but no place in my apartment is too far to shoot at the head or thigh instead, and I'm doubtful that any burglar in an Iron Man suit could make it up the stairs.
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It seems like #4 would be very effective at close range, but it will lose effectiveness quickly over distance since the projectiles each have little mass. It's probably going to be effective enough inside a house. I'd still go with 00 buck just to hedge my bets though.
Like Ayoob said, if a projectile has sufficient force to penetrate the human body (including clothing), it's only logical that it could penetrate drywall as well. I think the idea that shotguns are safe indoors is oversold. Just use what's effective.
Like Ayoob said, if a projectile has sufficient force to penetrate the human body (including clothing), it's only logical that it could penetrate drywall as well. I think the idea that shotguns are safe indoors is oversold. Just use what's effective.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
I would like to see a BG bad enough to stand up to a 1 1/2oz Mag Turkey load, or an old #2 lead shot goose load inside my house!
Can you say rat-hole!
And I don't care what kind of puffy coat he is wearing!
rc
Can you say rat-hole!
And I don't care what kind of puffy coat he is wearing!
rc
JNewell
Member
The problem is that there is no free lunch. This is a zero-sum arrangement.
Zach S
Member
The problem is that with anything smaller than 1 buck, my shotgun patterns for crap. At HD distances, the LE132 patterns are about the size of my fist. The smaller the shot, the more the pattern opens up - increasing the odds for errant pellets even with a direct hit on my target.
Everything is a trade-off. IMO, if its suitable for defense, you run the risk of over penetration.
Tac. Gunner
Member
Surprised to see no one has mentioned the new Winchester PDX-1 load with three 00 over a rifled slug. I haven't bought it any yet or shot any but the review by Dick Metcalf in Guns & Ammo was pretty positive. Now grant you it's not any different than just s regular slug but if you can throw in 00 also why not. Where I live over penetration isn't a problem so once I get some that's what is stayin in my shortie. I mean I what to see some withstand a 599 grain payload of lead.
@Soonerboomer
If those loads perform anything like my own hand-rolled 2 or 3 ball loads it'll get the job done. Against a free-swinging 1/8" plate target at 35 yards mine almost achieve full penetration. Sometimes the ability to shoot through walls is a good thing, and unless the bad guy is wearing body armor with titanium plates bones are gonna get broken.
If those loads perform anything like my own hand-rolled 2 or 3 ball loads it'll get the job done. Against a free-swinging 1/8" plate target at 35 yards mine almost achieve full penetration. Sometimes the ability to shoot through walls is a good thing, and unless the bad guy is wearing body armor with titanium plates bones are gonna get broken.
NoobCannon
Member
8 shells of Winchester's PDX-1 Slug-and-buck for the human variety of varmint.
and sidesaddle I have 2 #7 Birdshot in case of Water Moccasins or Copperheads that are so rampant in my area, as well as 3 Brenneke K.O. Slugs for any sort of mean, 4-legged varmint.
and sidesaddle I have 2 #7 Birdshot in case of Water Moccasins or Copperheads that are so rampant in my area, as well as 3 Brenneke K.O. Slugs for any sort of mean, 4-legged varmint.
Six
Member
#4 buck in the tube, 00 in the side saddle.
Not for any particular reason, it was what I had on hand. At the five yard distances in my house I doubt it makes a practical difference.
Not to derail the thread too much, but I don't understand mixing slugs in the tube, especially in an alternating pattern as if that somehow makes more sense. IMHO if your home defense tactics are dependent on a specific gun or ammo, something has gone very wrong.
If you feel that you "must have" slugs to punch through a standup freezer or whatever, I suggest that maybe it'd be more strategically sound to reduce the available cover rather than inventing counter measures.
But that's me.
Not for any particular reason, it was what I had on hand. At the five yard distances in my house I doubt it makes a practical difference.
Not to derail the thread too much, but I don't understand mixing slugs in the tube, especially in an alternating pattern as if that somehow makes more sense. IMHO if your home defense tactics are dependent on a specific gun or ammo, something has gone very wrong.
If you feel that you "must have" slugs to punch through a standup freezer or whatever, I suggest that maybe it'd be more strategically sound to reduce the available cover rather than inventing counter measures.
But that's me.
springfield30-06
Member
8 pellet Remington Managed Recoil #00 buckshot in the magazine tube. The reason I use the reduced recoil is because it patterns the best out of the loads I've tested so far.
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