125 grain .357 bullet damage..??

[ColtPythonElite]

The OP question is how much damage can occur to a revolver shooting the 125 gr 357 magnum round. The answer is yes.

"Yes" doesn't seem to answer how much damage can occur shooting the 125 gr 357 round?...Just sayin'...LOL.

 

[MachIVshooter]

This discussion should not be which revolver will hold up the longest

It's pertinent.

Yes, the light/fast loads will cause damage, regardless of which revolver. But some are far more affected than others.

K-frames and -Six guns have the thin forcing cone section, and the smaller cylinders leave the top strap closer to the chamber mouth, so both forcing cone damage and flame cutting is a much bigger concern with these.

L-frame or GP-100 were designed to offer a compromise between the K-frame/-Six and the N-frame/RH. They can take much more punishment than the smaller guns, at the cost of increased weight and bulk that makes them a bit more difficult to carry. Colt Python also fits this category.

The N-frame and Redhawk can pretty much handle the hottest loads you can throw at them, smile, and come back for more, year after year. But they are large, they are heavy, and they can both be damaged over time by rapid DA firing because the large cylinders with small holes have so much mass.

 

[orionengnr]

Again, this is primarily about the super-hot 125 grain loads. Load a 140 or 158(or heavier) as hot as you like and it's not a problem.

An entirely avoidable issue.

 

[roaddog28]

Here is a picture of what a light weight high velocity 357 magnum round will do over time. This revolver has seen a heavy round count. And the revolver is a S&W 686. The bottom line is using the full power 125 gr or lighter is harder on a revolver than using the heavier 158 gr rounds
Howard

 

[Bullseye]

I was searching around and rather than make yet another thread, I found this and thought oh well ...
I hate to revive an old thread but how does this affect the same revolver using 38 special in a .357 magnum revolver?
How about cast bullets vs something like gold dot JHP? I mostly shoot .38 spl out of my revolvers for practice and have my .357 loads mostly in 158 gr anyway. My guess is cast bullets will be less of an issue regardless of weight and powder in 38 spl.
The flame cutting is the culprit, is it not? There must be just that slightly longer moment of resistance in the forcing cone with a jacketed bullet than a softer cast bullet. I dunno, I just like to take the best care I can of my firearms.
I probably don't even shoot enough for this to be an issue.

 

[cal44mag]

I shoot 357 Magnum in my Model 28-2 Smith. It's an N frame and I think it would withstand any factory 357 magnum load just fine.

I also shoot 357 Magnum in a new Model 60-15.

But I've never shot a full boat 125 gr flame thrower in it.

But I think the M60 would withstand hot 357 loads longer than my hand would.

 

[Tallball]

I am curious if a Blackhawk would be similarly affected. I shoot my 357 Blackhawk quite a bit, with whatever kinds of ammo my FiL happens to feel like reloading at any given time.

 

[loose noose]

Hmmm, I too just loaded up about 200 rounds of 110 grain JHP using H110 for my newly acquired 3 screw Ruger BH, perhaps I should pull all those bullets, and say use Unique etc.? I've shot several of those rounds in my Model 19, (approximately 200-250 rounds) and haven't noticed any flame cutting or erosion around the forcing cone. In fact this is the first I've even heard of this.

 

[dvnv]

I shot warm/hot loaded Speer 125 gr in a 3 screw Blackhawk for years...Ioads were around 20.5 gr of H110, velocity was +/- 1,625 out of a 6.5" barrel. The flame cutting of frame and forcing cone looked similar to roaddog28's in post #29 above.

For reference purposes...at somewhere around 15K rounds, the forcing cone damage got bad enough that accuracy started to suffer. So yes, even a Blackhawk won't put up with it forever.

My solution was to re-barrel and it is now once again accurate...actually, very accurate.

I still shoot hot 125s because they are accurate and make such a great 100 yard rabbit round. If I wear it out again, I'll re-barrel again. I have not noticed any other issues from the load, just the forcing cone erosion. I doubt I would do this to a N frame Smith, and certainly not a K frame or a Python, but I have a second Blackhawk in the safe for if/when I have to send #1 into the shop again. ymmv, dvnv

 

[Bullseye]

15000 and you started to see a problem dvnv. That's a lot of shooting, I'll never get to do.
Having 5 .357's and 2 38 spl revolvers, I'll never get near that through any of them.
A couple hundred rounds of light bullets is something I would not worry about or pull loose noose, I'd just change my ways and not worry about it. I think I am just going to stick with 158 gr bullets from now on unless I get a batch of freebee's or a super deal on some light jacketed hollow points

Back to my questions. Does this happen with cast bullets and is this something that can happen with +P 38 spl.?

 

[dvnv]

15000 and you started to see a problem dvnv. That's a lot of shooting, I'll never get to do.
Having 5 .357's and 2 38 spl revolvers, I'll never get near that through any of them.
A couple hundred rounds of light bullets is something I would not worry about or pull loose noose, I'd just change my ways and not worry about it. I think I am just going to stick with 158 gr bullets from now on unless I get a batch of freebee's or a super deal on some light jacketed hollow points

Back to my questions. Does this happen with cast bullets and is this something that can happen with +P 38 spl.?

It took me 30 years to wear it out, not likely it will have to go in again.
I don't have the round count with softer loads, but I think it is the full charge of ball powder under a short bullet that does the damage. I doubt you will have that issue with a lifetime of 158gr loads in 357, let alone 38 spl. Lead is easier on bores, though scraping it out might not be...I wouldn't worry about it (obviously I don't).

 

[Bullseye]

Thanks dvnv. I use mostly Unique and keep them under max anyways. Mostly so I keep my shots under control.
The 158's have more recoil but I have come up with the right load for me. I bought some Montana Gold JHP 125 gr bullets and they are on the upper end with powder but mostly have them on hand in speedloaders for SD.
I shoot RMR copper plated 158 gr bullets quite a bit. Most of my shooting is with 38 spl. If I shoot cast, I normally use powder coated SWC. Good as lead with no leading.

 

[Confederate]

For outdoor self defense, the 125gr JHP is one of the most devastating rounds against humans and cougars you can use out of a .357 revolver. And in the 80s, it could defeat many types of body armor. For defense against heavier animals, the 158gr JSPs should be used. So don't hesitate to buy and use 125gr JHPs for defense; just don't shoot them a lot if you have one of the lighter frame Smiths.

Stainless steel resists gas cutting better than blued guns. This is because it has chromium in it, which keeps the heat and flames from leeching the carbon out of the steel and causing it to become brittle. I've seen cracked forcing cones on some Smith K-frame guns, even stainless, but oddly only on a few Ruger Security-Sixes (and most with needlessly hot reloads). The Rugers had forcing cones about the same size as the K-frame Smiths, but they didn't seem to suffer the forcing cone wear that the Smiths did. Why? Who knows? The Rugers that were rented out at ranges had incredibly long lives according to many unsubstantiated accounts I've heard (which is why so many ranges used them as rentals). Even after the GP-100s had been around for awhile, you'd go to a range and still see well worn Security-Sixes on the rental racks. So yes, Rugers last.

For home self defense just about any magnum's going to be excessively hot, but for camping, hiking, hunting or cross country in a car, the .357 125 gr JHP is going to be great. The 158gr JHP works better on larger animals, but isn't a super manstopper. All in all, I'd take the former over the latter. Think Dennis Hopper in Duel.

 

[Walkalong]

.38 Spls won't hurt the forcing cone on any .357 revolver. It's the large amount of powder burned and the high pressures from .357 Mag that can be hard on thin forcing cones, such as the K frame .357s.

So, if you like shooting lots of full power flame throwing 125 Gr .357 loads, stick with N Frames and other robust .357 guns.

 

[Confederate]

If the Remington Golden Saber 125g JHP is loaded lower than most factory 125g ammo, can I use it in my Model 66 without the risk of damage? Right now I also only shoot 140g or above also.

Unless you're going to be shooting a lot of it, don't worry. One thousand rounds is twenty 50-round boxes, and if it's factory ammo, your 66 can do that in its sleep. I knew someone who wore out his S&W 19 with 4,000+ rounds of 125gr JHP handloads. It needed retiming after 2,000 or so rounds, but after another 2K, frame stretching and forcing cone rear began to take its toll.

For self defense I've heard many good things about the Speer 140gr JHP. It may be the sleeper round in .357 of the previous century. I just don't think it's commercially available.

 

[eldon519]

I am sure many will disagree, but there isn't much need for the 125gr full-strength .357 magnum these days. There are mid-level 125 grains like the Corbon DPX which get better penetration and expansion than most 125gr loads without the blast and recoil of full-strength magnums. With today's bullets, you don't need 1400fps to get penetration and expansion, and unfortunately, many of those 125gr full-strength magnums have not been updated to benefit from advances in technology. Nowadays, you can get standard pressure 9mm loads that will beat the 125gr manstoppers in terms of both penetration and expansion. If you are shooting larger animals, you are better served by a 158gr or 180gr load.

I think the problem seems to be most prevalent in .357 magnum because the light-for-caliber bullets are almost the norm. Compare that to .44 magnum where a 240gr load is the norm and compares to around a 165gr .358" bullet in terms of sectional density.

 

[Confederate]

Here is a picture of what a light weight high velocity 357 magnum round will do over time. This revolver has seen a heavy round count. And the revolver is a S&W 686. The bottom line is using the full power 125 gr or lighter is harder on a revolver than using the heavier 158 gr rounds
Howard

Viewing this I don't see horrible damage though the cone does seem to be scarred a bit, the actual cutting seems only superficial, especially on the topstrap. If this had been a blued gun the cone most likely would be exhibiting cracks, but the etchings here don't seem to be particularly deep.

 

[Drail]

110-125 light bullet high velocity loads will gas cut any forcing cone if you use them a lot. It doesn't make any difference if the gun is an K/L/N frame or a Ruger or whatever. I didn't believe it for a long time until I saw it for myself. It's not an Internet myth - ask any smith who works on a lot of revolvers. Unless you view your revolver as "disposable" limit the use of light high performance rounds.

 

[sarge83]

I do not know if this is in the correct thread to put this in. I have a question that maybe one of THR members can shed some light on.

I was recently told by a friend that his gunsmith told him not to shoot 125 grain .357 Magnum cartridges in a .357 Magnum revolver. The reason for this I was told was the 125 grain bullets in a magnum cartridge/gun would damage the forcing cone. The gunsmith told my friend to use 158 grain bullets and higher when shooting .357 Magnum cartridges. The gunsmith said it was fine to shoot 125 grain .38 Spcl rounds becuase they do not cause forcing cone damage.

Has anyone ever heard of this..?? I reload my own and was about to place an order for .357 Mag bullets. I like 125 grain .357 Mag for the higher velocity and energy but I do not want to damage my .357 revolvers.

Thank you in advance for any responses.

-Only older K frame Smiths usually encounter this problem.

 

[HexHead]

The outer surface of the forcing cone on a K-frame isn't round. The bottom is flattened, making it thinner. Hence the issues with a steady diet of hot 125 gr .357 Magnums. The L-frame forcing cone is the same thickness all the way around, fixing the issue.

 

[RealGun]

I would think velocity to be the issue, not weight. I use 125 gr on medium and light loads for the smaller revolvers. None are above recommended limits for lead bullets. I don't know if the context of the precautions is jacketed bullets, but I suspect so.

I also find leading issues reduced by using softer Br 12 instead of 18 ( I buy my lead bullets).

My Smith 19-4 is a K-frame, pinned and recessed, 4" and has the flat at the bottom of the breech. This gun gets "medium" loads, 158 gr, appropriate to the gun's mass and the shooter's enjoyment.

 

[PabloJ]

I do not know if this is in the correct thread to put this in. I have a question that maybe one of THR members can shed some light on.

I was recently told by a friend that his gunsmith told him not to shoot 125 grain .357 Magnum cartridges in a .357 Magnum revolver. The reason for this I was told was the 125 grain bullets in a magnum cartridge/gun would damage the forcing cone. The gunsmith told my friend to use 158 grain bullets and higher when shooting .357 Magnum cartridges. The gunsmith said it was fine to shoot 125 grain .38 Spcl rounds becuase they do not cause forcing cone damage.

Has anyone ever heard of this..?? I reload my own and was about to place an order for .357 Mag bullets. I like 125 grain .357 Mag for the higher velocity and energy but I do not want to damage my .357 revolvers.

Thank you in advance for any responses.

The only thing I seen is light weight bullet recommendation for light framed S&W .357/.38 revolvers. Reason being force of recoil will actually make heavier bullets back out of cases and bind the cylinder. Personally I would not shoot .357 loads out of 12oz or 14oz revolver.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks for all the responses and links. I only have one K-frame model 66. The other is a 686. I was about to place a bullet order to resupply my reloading components. If I order 125 grain, I get 3750 bullets. If I order 158 grain, I get 3,000 bullets. All are coming from Montana Gold Bullet.

Howdy

Open the cylinder on your Model 66 and examine the forcing cone. You will notice there is a flat cut on the underside of the forcing cone. This was done to clear the gas ring on the cylinder. This feature has been present on all K frame revolvers since dinosaurs roamed the earth and it was not a problem with 38 Special ammunition. The first K frame 357 Magnum revolver was the 357 Combat Magnum in 1955, later renamed the Model 19 in 1957. This is where the flat on the underside of the forcing cone was first recognized as a potential problem. The flat reduced the thickness of the forcing cone in that area, and it was noticed that forcing cones were splitting at the thin spot.

Now open your Model 686. There is no flat cut on the underside of the forcing cone, it is a uniform thickness all the way around. That is the reason the L frame was introduced in the first place. The cylinder is slightly larger in diameter than a K frame cylinder, and the frame window is slightly taller to accommodate it. So no cut was necessary on the underside of the forcing cone.

How hot you choose to load your 357 Magnum ammunition is up to you, and what weight bullets you plan to use is also up to you. But that Model 686 with its thick forcing cone will probably still be shooting fine when the next glacier arrives.

 

[mjsdwash]

Its fairly well documented, but you dont need to worry, published data is so wimpy for 125 grain bullets, it pushes 357 a little higher than 9+p+. There used to be some 125gr bullets doing 1600fps and higher out of 4" guns, and those would mess some up. The fastest ive seen any go over a chrono with handloads, or common factory ammunition is 1400fps. Buffalo bore makes some stuff that will hit 1700 though. A hot 9mm will do 1250fps pretty easily

 

[Drail]

I think we are discussing cracked forcing cones and severely eroded forcing cones simultaneously and they are two different issues. I have seen a lot more eroded cones than cracked ones. A thick cone will still be eaten away by hot gases just like a thin one. Light bullets move out of the case sooner and expose the cone to more hot gases for a longer period. But I agree with the notion that cutting material away from the cone to make it fit into a frame was a really dumb idea considering so many people insist on using the hottest, fastest loads they can buy and the fact that there are so many high performance loads available everywhere they shop today. I have seen guys shoot guns loose and eat the cones out as fast as they could and I've seen older guys run the same gun for many years and they still check out like new. You can either push the envelope or stay inside it. Moderation in all things.