12GA Rifle From HELL--

[hubel458]

Some 28ga FH info and ideas.
Brenneke now has 28ga slugs, with good speed,
decent smooth bore accuracy. About 260 grain
slugs. SAme style as their 12ga ones with locked
on base.Work in 28ga NEFs of course and
28ga O/Us.Some real good 28ga O/Us out there.
28ga is a .550 Inch bore.

But now Rossi has out, a revolving 28ga shotgun
with about a 19 inch barrel. Should work ok with
those slugs. You could also get RMC 28ga brass cases
about 2 3/4" long, maybe 3", depending on chamber,
a shorter version of our 28GA FH 3.25" case.

Maybe I get one in the future, and put on a longer
heavier 585 cal barrel and set it up for my
585 Short HE. Neat gun.Called Circuit Judge....Ed

 

[hubel458]

I found a picture of 28ga Rossi Circuit Judge. Barrel is
smooth bore , could be little heavier barrel, but it will do
ok with the new plastic case Brenneke slugs,
260 gr at 1450 fps..Could do 2000 in a little longer
brass case from RMC.

28ga is a 550" bore in a rifled bor.
24ga is about .585 same bore as my 585, and
most all 577/585 stuff. The 28ga chamber with minimum work
would fire my shorter 585 with a switch barrel 585 bore.
And still work with 28ga with 28ga barrel put on.
Difference is the case thickness with the 28ga case
being nearly the same OD as my 585 drawn, stronger
brass cases.

The Brenneke slug has along locked on base and seal,
connected by long post, that you can see inside
the case in picture and pictured on the box
Quite a long tail so to speak for
good smooth bore work.This is a great step forward
for 28ga slugs, as most reloading slug stuff was only
100 grain balls or other super light slug designs...ED

 

[hubel458]

Some have a need for supply of full bore 12ga hard alloy
slugs about 620-650gr. So a couple guys are opening up
their Lee Key Slug molds to full bore .729" It will still
have the partly hollow base and key. I will do the
short brass cases with the first ones I get, to get loads
developed. The slugs are about same length as
the 730 gr Dixies.They have blunt round nose and
can be roll crimped in plastic cases ok. Load of 90gr
of IMR4759 in the short brass or 3" plastic cases
will get 1800 plus in 24" barrels.
I'll Have pictures later to post.

Also here is picture of my 585HE in a Khan
shotgun action. Operates as a straight bolt,
straight pull action for now. Barrel is heavy,
30" long, the butt is weighted. thick pads,
it fits nice, looks great. Ed

 

[Dave McCracken]

Wow. A one and a half oz slug at 1800 FPS.

Just the thing if Mastodon season reopens.....

 

[hubel458]

10ga FH ideas..Ok I think the most stylish guns in the world
are nicely built over/unders. And there is a heavy duty
10ga over under made by Armi San Marco, imported by
Cape Outfitters. That is one brand I've lately
seen some sold on GB. Others just as strong are Armsport
shown in the picture below, also
American Arms, and Richland Arms.
And probably a few more.

I'll be trying to get one I can afford, I could
ream one chamber for 4.05 brass case
for slugs, and leave other for 3.5" magnum shot and slug
loads in plastic cases. But if we left both 3.5" you'd
still have a hairy gun. You can buy 3.5" new plastic cases,
with hot Fed 239 primers for 22 cents each.
Make a real great combo gun.For slugs with
the right weight slugs.Don't go real heavy.

For slugs use the hollow base hard cast lead
900gr in brass case, at 1900 fps,that the
guy in AZ makes.In plastic about 1750.
Those are not a full bore loads,needing real thick
barrel, but that heavy O/U has barrels ok for that,
keeping pressures at mag shotshell levels.14,000 psi.

These modern O/U actions can take pressures like the
heavy duty NEF SB2 10-12ga frame, if barrels were thick
enough.20,000 in 10ga. IE the actions are real strong.
Ruger has made O/U rifles on their O/U frames,
and others have made big bore rifles
using modern over/unders. I like idea of O/U
double ten slug gun knowing the speed we have
gotten with our slow powder slug loads....Ed

 

[madmike]

I presume the bottom barrel will be the deep one.

 

[hubel458]

Yes, That is what I would do.Ed

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I would love to see a Circut Judge cut down into a handgun, that would be one fun gun!

 

[madmike]

They make a lot of .410/.45 handguns, including several Judges, though I've never understood why. I guess there's more people with money for guns than knowledge of guns.

 

[gathert]

I would love to see a Circut Judge cut down into a handgun, that would be one fun gun!

Ever head of the Taurus Judge? They tried to make a 28 gauge one, but that turned into an NFA item because of its length for a pistol and no rifling in the barrel.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Ever head of the Taurus Judge? They tried to make a 28 gauge one, but that turned into an NFA item because of its length for a pistol and no rifling in the barrel.

Of course I did . The BATF is one big buzzkill when it comes to guns but it was because it was larger than .50 caliber, It had rifling. They should hurry up and make a 20 gauge version of the Circut Judge, I don't think I would ever really want to use a 12 gauge pistol.

 

[madmike]

No, it had nothing to do with caliber and rifling. It had to do with it being a shotgun and shorter than 18" barrel, 26" OAL. Which any responsible manufacturer should have known before commencing production.

 

[Sam1911]

No, it had nothing to do with caliber and rifling. It had to do with it being a shotgun and shorter than 18" barrel, 26" OAL. Which any responsible manufacturer should have known before commencing production.

No, it didn't. We've had several threads on this already. (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=7503535&highlight=AOW#post7503535) The 28 ga. Judge was not a shotgun. It cannot legally be a shotgun because it was not "designed or re-designed to be fired from the shoulder."

Therefore, it could be a Title II "Any Other Weapon" -- if it was a smoothbore handgun, but it isn't that, either.

However, it IS a firearm over .50 caliber, making it de facto a "Large Bore Destructive Device."

If the the BATFE felt it had "sporting" uses (in other words, if they felt like it) they could grant it the exemption they've exteded to most shotguns and many sporting rifles over .50 cal, which makes it a normal Title I firearm.

Apparantly (and neither Taurus nor the BATFE have said) they informed Taurus that they would not grant that exemption, so it would have Title II status. Taurus, and all other major manufacturers, have no interest in making a product that has to be sold through SOT3 dealers, and involves all the registration and tax stamp hassle for the customer.

Should Taurus have known this would happen? Perhaps, but sometimes you've just got to try, I guess.

 

[madmike]

I stand semi-corrected. The point is, ATF would not consider it to be either a shotgun or a standard revolver. Rifling would not change that categorization.

Bore restrictions do not apply to regular shotguns.

But we're off topic here. Back to the 12 ga FH, or .729 Redneck, as I like to call it.

 

[Sam1911]

Rifling would not change that categorization.

Well, it certainly could.
If the firearm was a handgun, and smooth bore, it would also be a Title II "Any Other Weapon," requiring the same registration and SOT3 sale.

Bore restrictions do not apply to regular shotguns.

ONLY because -- and IF -- they are exempted as "sporting." Most are considered so as a matter of course, but there are risks. As the USAS 12 and "Street Sweeper/Protecta" illustrate, the BATFE can declare them to not be useful for "sporting purposes," thus non-exempt and thus Title II Destructive Devices.

 

[madmike]

On this interesting tangent, aren't smoothbores legal in standard calibers? Like .38 Special? ISTR there was one at some point.

Shotguns mix it all up, but I guess that gives the ATF something to keep employed over.

 

[Sam1911]

aren't smoothbores legal in standard calibers? Like .38 Special? ISTR there was one at some point.

Not as handguns, it seems. The text says:

Any other weapon. Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

The bolded part appears to negate the legality of any smooth-bore handgun (shotshells being available in 'most any common handgun caliber), though I suppose it would be possible to make a case for a smooth-bore handgun in a caliber that no one had made a shot-shell to fit. So, perhaps like a TC Contender in 7-30 Waters might be able to be a smooth-bore, because I doubt any manufacturer ever made a shotshell in that caliber -- but who would want such a thing?

If the ATF considered this an area open to some handguns, I've not heard of it, but anything's possible with those folks.

 

[madmike]

It says, "Shotgun shell" not "shot shell." There is a difference.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/97950764...SMOOTH_BORE_DOUBLE_ACTION_38_CAL_REVOLVER.htm

 

[Sam1911]

Ok. Take it up with the BATFE. I don't make the decisions for them.

 

[hubel458]

Operative word is 'smooth bore'-You can load shot in
rifle and pistol shells and shoot them legaly in their respective
rifled barrels.

And in shotgun calibers, some of the odd ones
that are established as shotgun shells in the small
bore end of the list, and are similar
to some rifle/pistol sizes are-

14ga-64 Maynard-18ga-24ga- 55Maynard-32ga-11.15x52-
44xl-360-9mm-32centerfire-etc.....

And in any established shotgun caliber you can legally
shoot any type of solid slug/bullet.... except explosive
ones for which you must pay a fee...

The powers to be, want smooth barrels to be over 18"
on a gun over 26", or they impose registration under
NFA and charge a fee...Rossi made their 'legal' revolving 28ga
shotgun as a smoothbore with over an 18" barrel.
And as long as we have those Brennekes now, and
other hot stuff for 28ga smoothbores being worked on
I ain't going to fight with powers to make it rifled. Ed

 

[madmike]

It seems the ones in question are all pre-1934. So I guess they do consider a smoothbore .22 to be a shotgun.

Good to know they're keeping us safe. :-/

 

[hubel458]

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,
a locked on base ounce slug in sabot at factory speed of
16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Second is Federal Deep Penetrator, 1 oz, copper plated
and a harder lead alloy, than Federals regular slugs.

Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,
penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.


Seeing the slug base attached deal from Brenneke,
in a sabot I figured out the following.
The idea is the new BPI blue sabot, being undersize for
12ga, is a perfect fit in a 10ga bpi wadcup, The blue has no
cushion on it so it sits in cup ok and a roll crimp works.
Just shaved bottom edge corner and fits bottom ok.
In 32" heavy barrel NEF 10ga, and 10ga 3.5" plastic case,
gets over 2300 at less than mag shotgun pressures
with 440gr slug in blue sabot.

If I can find thin wall 10ga wadcup the 12ga bpi AQ slug
would work even better, as it is for smooth bores....Ed

 

[hubel458]

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug
I had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined
it out to cast a .729" full bore slug. In picture
is a regular soft lead Foster style to compare with.
Slugs are hard alloy and can be speeded up ok.
In 2nd picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass cases with
slugs in them. The slugs have real good shoulder to
roll crimp against in plastic cases.
These first ones are 500 gr. We are going to
work on another die to get the weight about 600gr,
that the brass case guys want to use.
Lee molds are not real high price so it isn't
a bad deal to get them and machine them.Ed.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Those loaded rounds look like 328 wadcutters on steroids, and mescaline.

Holy Overkill......

 

[hubel458]

Dave- Here are the steroid ones.

The first full bore Lee Key slugs were 490 gr,
that we had made. Good for 2300 in 3.5" plastic
and 27-2800 in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the
long barrel NEF.

For the 8ga Hubel Falling Block pictured
above; For now using 3.3" swaged kiln cases. We swage
them to fit the 8ga chamber in falling block.
The barrel is real thick so we can run 50-60,000 psi
if we want in that action. The heavy duty 8ga plastic will
take about 23000 psi. A MRC turned brass would do
35,000 psi. But the plastic does so great,for now I'm
staying with 70 cent 3.3" plastic, primed with 239 primers,
good for 4 shots or more.

And I have the REM wadcup, on left in picture, with
its own seal, that they use for the kiln slug, which works
for various other slugs and shot loads.

In the 8ga HFB - 3.3" plastic cases-
1020gr 2000 -- 900gr to 2200 ---- 770gr to 2400---
and triple ought buckshot load---
9 - 70 gr 000 buckshot, in wadcup. 630 gr total-- 2600.Ed