12GA Will never be the same again!

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Does that particular sabot work with rifled chokes? I'd like to have a few seconds to pick myself up off the ground and run after shooting at dangerous game, so I'd like to have a bit more than 50 yards accuracy and stand-off capability as I currently have with a smooth bore.

I am also looking forward to shooting it in my 3.5" Single shot Pardner shotgun!
:what:

LD
 
Is HS6 a bit slower than your usual fast shotgun/pistol powders giving a lower pressure curve for that given velocity?
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HS6 is an older school ball powder. It is the same powder as the old Winchester 540 Ball propellant. It's main use is in high velocity lead hunting loads down low (1 1/8 to 1 1/4 ounces) or for medium velocity heavy weight loads (1 3/8 to 1 5/8 ounces) in 2 3/4" magnum Lead and light 3" magnum lead loads. The really heavy weight Winchester powder used to be Winchester 571 (aka HS-7). It's similar in burn rate to Alliant Blue Dot, SR 4756, and a bit faster than the newer Hodgdon Longshot propellant. It also compares to Accurate Arms #7.

And yes, you can put a muzzle brake on a slug gun. The open shooters in USPSA 3-gun all have muzzle brakes installed on tier guns and use them often when shooting slugs.

Ballistic Products is usually pretty good about data so I'm interested in seeing that they really can get that kind of velocity. Out of a 3.5" gun, I could see 1700 fps, 2400 fps seems a little far fetched though.

Anyone with a drill press and scale can easily start loading their own sabots. You also of course can use much lighter bullets.
Click to expand...

Actually, you can't. You can't really go much lower than about 437 gr (1 ounce) since with the slower burning shotshell propellants, if you don't have enough resistance, they will not build enough pressure and will not ignite correctly resulting in a squib. I've tried loading really light loads ( 6 pellets of 00 buck (3/4 of an ounce, or 328 gr) with 40 gr of Blue dot). Did not build enough pressure and they went "poof!"

Ok, now I went to look at the web site.. Interesting, they have load data for 300 gr bullets. I suspect they will not be using something like HS6 for that, likely it will be something like Hodgdon Universal or Unique since those are a bit faster. I may have to get some of this and try them out. :)

Added:

As a follow up I just went and ordered some sabots and some bullets too.. I'm going to experiement with some .502" 340 gr Moly coated lead bullets (meant for 50 ae) and some 440 gr bullets sized .512 (meant for some other caliber). I'll post results when I get all the components together. I'll be loading for 3" since it's what I have.
 
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I started a thread over on the handloading/reloading category about these new sabots. There's a link to a site called dixie slugs on the cast boolits site.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37607

I just ordered some sabots and some 2-¾ fiocchi primed empties. However--I don't have a rifled BBL for my 870----YET! Looks like I'll be looking for a barrel this week. I also ordered a lee boolit mold for 50 cal .501 dia. 440 grain flat nosed GC lead boolit,(from midway). I hope there's 2-¾ load data. Otherwise I may be looking for a 3 or 3-½ inch 870.

Here's a link to my thread on H&R here on THR.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=399388

Not nearly as much interest on that thread, as on this one.

Why would anybody want/need 2400 fps? A 440 grain lead boolit would do what is needed at 1600, as long as the accuracy is there. Then they have loads for 300 or 350 grain jacketed hollowpoints, they would be fine at 16-1800.
 
Guys, the recoil will not be as bad as you think. The first 3" load will feel like a hot 458 Winchester Mag. The 3.5" load will make around 98ft-lbs recoil in an 8LB gun. So it will feel like a heavy loaded 458 Lott. There is better recoil efficiency in the shotgun, since it uses less than half the weight of powder as the rifle cartridges. So recoil should theoretically be a bit less per energy made.

You cannot buy loaded rounds, you must reload them yourself. If you are not familiar with slug reloading, know that it is virtually the simplest form of reloading, and I recommend you try it. Use a roll crimper bit to roll the new hulls, the rest is put in by hand. You can order the crimp bit at Ballisticproducts.com, where the sabots come from, along with everything else.

I'll post the full load data. Note that the 500 grain bullets achieve the best efficiency. 300 grains don't go 3,000FPS, for instance. But notice how it seems it's getting good at 500 grains, and they stop there. I suspect 600-700 grain cast bullets will perform very well also. Oh, and also note the 7800Ft-lb 2-3/4 load: 500gr @ 2650FPS.

One last thing, if anyone wants to develop their own loads, but wants to have pressure/FPS data first, PM me for info. There is a guy in Illinois who you can send your loaded slugs to, and he will test them in a pressure barrel to provide the transducer data. If I recall correctly, the cost is $2 per test shot, and it's recommended you fire a minimum of 3-5 rounds of each charge weight to get a sufficient average pressure.

BPI Guide: BLS-12 Ballistic Sabot
.. COPYRIGHT BALLISTIC PRODUCTS, INC. 2008
ID# Ref# Ga. Len. Hull Primer Powder Gr. Gas Seal/Wad Over Shot SLUG MFG Type PSI FPS Crimp
80929 79 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 24.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady HP-XTP 10200 2200 ROLL
81001 110 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 24.5 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady HP-XTP 11500 2400 ROLL
81006 128 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 22.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady HP-XTP 11400 2450 ROLL
80929 81 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 23.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 10900 2100 ROLL
81006 127 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 20.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 11200 2350 ROLL
81001 112 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 33.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 10400 2600 ROLL
81002 114 12 2.75 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 35.0 X12X+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11200 2650 ROLL
80929 82 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 26.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 10200 1700 ROLL
81002 116 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 CLAYS 28.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 11400 2100 ROLL
81003 123 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 INTERNATIONAL 30.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 11000 2200 ROLL
81003 122 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 E3 24.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 11200 2150 ROLL
81006 129 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 HS6 44.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11100 2400 ROLL
81006 130 12 3.00 FIOCCHI FIO-616 LONGSHOT 38.0 FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 9700 2350 ROLL
80929 117 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A CLAYS 28.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady HP-XTP 14000 2200 ROLL
81006 133 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A E3 27.0 X12X+FS12+14CORK12+BLS12 COS12 300GR Hornady HP-XTP 11200 1600 ROLL
80929 83A 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A INTERNATIONAL 34.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 13600 2600 ROLL
80929 83B 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A INTERNATIONAL 32.0 X12X+FS12+BLS12 COS12 350GR Hornady HP-XTP 13500 2800 ROLL
81003 125 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A HS6 46.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11700 2400 ROLL
81006 133 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A HS6 50.0 (2)BPGS+FS12+14CORK12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 12900 2750 ROLL
81002 118 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 40.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 10600 2350 ROLL
81003 124 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 42.0 (2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11600 2450 ROLL
81006 131 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 44.0 BPGS+(2)FS12+BLS12 COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 11400 2400 ROLL
81006 132 12 3.50 FEDERAL FED209A LONGSHOT 46.0 (2)BPGS+FS12+14CORK12 (2)COS12 500GR Hornady JFP MAG 12500 2550 ROLL
BLS-12 SLUG
*Roll Crimps: This is a rigid load requirement at this time.
WARNING: BALLISTIC PRODUCTS, INC. DISCLAIMS ALL POSSIBLE LIABILITY FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ACTUAL, INCIDENTAL, AND CONSEQUENTIAL, RESULTING FROM USAGE OF
INFORMATION OR ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS AND OTHER PUBLICATIONS, LABELS, CATALOGS AND BOOKLETS. USE DATA AND ADVICE AT YOUR OWN RISK AND WITH CAUTION.
WHERE DATA LIST SPECIFIC COMPONENTS, NO CHANGES OR SUBSTITUTIONS FOR THESE COMPONENTS CAN BE MADE WITHOUT RISKING SIGNIFICANT CHANGES IN THE LEVEL OF
BALLISTIC PERFORMANCE AND/OR SAFETY OF THE LOADS SHOWN. FOLLOW LOADING DATA EXACTLY AND DO NOT SUBSTITUTE COMPONENTS. WE MAKE NO WARRANTIES
EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, LIMITED OR FULL. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THESE AND OTHER STANDARDS OF RELOADING MAY RESULT IN ACCIDENTS WITH SERIOUS INJURY AND/OR
DEATH TO THE SHOOTER AND/OR BYSTANDERS. KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN. FOLLOW LOADING DATA AND WARNINGS OF RELOADING EXACTLY. WE DISCLAIM ANY
LIABILITY FOR DAMAGE OR INJURY THAT MAY RESULT FROM YOUR HANDLOADED SHOTSHELLS AS WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER YOUR LOADING PRACTICES AND METHODS. TO
AVOID SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH TO SHOOTER AND BYSTANDERS, THIS PRODUCT SHOULD ONLY BE USED IN GUNSMITH-INSPECTED GUNS DESIGNED FOR MODERN SHOTSHELLS.
THIS PRODUCT MUST NOT BE USED IN GUNS HAVING DAMASCUS OR TWIST STEEL BARRELS. KNOW WHAT IS BEHIND YOUR. IF GUN FAILS TO FIRE, KEEP POINTED IN SAFE
DIRECTION FOR 30 SECONDS, THEN UNLOAD CAREFULLY. WEAR EYE AND EAR PROTECTION AND OBSERVE PROPER GUN SAFETY AT ALL TIMES.
 
Since this is a sabot slug, I wonder if it requires the use of an overshot card since the sabot would be the only thing the crimp actually holds in or I wonder if the bullet is held by enough friction to not need one?

Questions to be answered when I get my components.
 
Wonderful! I don't have clays, E-3, OR longshot!

Sarge, as an answer to your question, notice the wad column called for. They require a COS-12, that's a clear overshot wad.http://www.ballisticproducts.com/products.asp?dept=112
I'd bet that goes on top of the sabot/bullet to hold the bullet in place.

James, over at dixie slugs claims that there's "tits" on the inside of the sabot petals that bite into the bullets. This grips the bullets to impart spin from the rifling. They're apparently near the front of the sabot petals, so lighter, therefore shorter, bullets need a .410 card wad under it to move the bullet forward to sit where the tits can grip it. www.dixieslugs.com

Lots of learning to anything new like this. Since I've been loading shotgun before I started loading rifle/pistol, and I started that 40+ years ago, I need something new and different to keep me interested. This has certainly piqued my interest!:D It may even cast me some $, like if I need to buy a complete new shotgun. What the hey, it's been over 6 months since the last gun purchase, I'm overdue!:evil:
 
Looks like I need to put an order in to NEF for their nasty slug gun and lengthen the chamber to 3.5".
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Look at the pressures they stop at with HS6: 12,900PSI. At 15,000PSI, easily attainable in that NEF barrel, one would assume you would be doing near 50BMG energy levels with the right powder.
 
A trip the local gunshop netted me 2#'s of powder, E-3 and longshot. I also found a new 20" rifled slug barrel with a cantilever, chambered for 3". BUT my 870 began it's life as a 2-¾ inch gun. IIRC the ejector can be moved back ¼ inch to allow 3" shells to clear the ejection port. For now though, I'll stick with the 2-¾ shells. Deer season is just over 5 weeks away.

My son may be able to hunt Ft. McCoy this year,(he's stationed there in the Army reserves). It's shotgun only, so he may get to test my loads!:D
 
Snuffy,

What loads do you plan to load to? I am trying to get a heavy stainless barrel out to me ASAP, and fire the 500gr turned bullets at 2,750FPS from a weighted gun. If the sabots remain accurate, it could be a 400 yard slug gun.
 
Well Matt, the sabots arrived today,(BPI sent me an e-mail that they'd been shipped today, ½ hour later they were on my doorstep)! They look very well made. I have everything I need to load a 2-¾ load EXPECT the over shot wad.(The clear wad.) That should arrive tomorrow IF they shipped it yesterday. I'm headed out to the gunshop to get the barrel, and look for some 50 cal bullets. My midway order should be here today, probably after I leave for work.

I'm looking at the sheet supplied with the sabots, it's no where near as extensive as the data provided by you. Where did you get that?

I think I will try the 350 Hornady XTP first, using the load for Alliant E-3. Since I assume those are max loads, I will start 10% lower, load a few on the way up to the 2350 level or the top powder charge whichever happens first. I'll be running these over my pact chrono so I'll know what the velocity is.
 
So lots of people have posted about what that would do to their shoulder, but what would it do to the TARGET? I shot a hedgeapple this morning with a 12ga Winchester 1oz and it looked like a waterballoon popped x 10!
 
Well Matt, the sabots arrived today,(BPI sent me an e-mail that they'd been shipped today, ½ hour later they were on my doorstep)! They look very well made. I have everything I need to load a 2-¾ load EXPECT the over shot wad.(The clear wad.) That should arrive tomorrow IF they shipped it yesterday. I'm headed out to the gunshop to get the barrel, and look for some 50 cal bullets. My midway order should be here today, probably after I leave for work.

I'm looking at the sheet supplied with the sabots, it's no where near as extensive as the data provided by you. Where did you get that?

I think I will try the 350 Hornady XTP first, using the load for Alliant E-3. Since I assume those are max loads, I will start 10% lower, load a few on the way up to the 2350 level or the top powder charge whichever happens first. I'll be running these over my pact chrono so I'll know what the velocity is.
Click to expand...

Glad to see that yet another person is trying these. I am very interested in seeing the accuracy outcome and results from your chrono.

The data I posted was sent directly from BPI. I believe it is the data straight from the data sheet you can buy for $1.99 on their site (not what's included with the sabots obviously).

Tomorrow my Savage 210 12GA is off to Pac-Nor for a heavy stainless fluted barrel install! They are matching my action to the barrel, and it will have a fast twist of 1:24. I might miss the first season by the time it gets back (I have a backup gun), but I hope to use it second season for long-range shooting. I am going to weight the stock with lead, and drive the 500gr bullets to 2800FPS with the heavy barrel.

By the way, remember that with your 20" barrel, velocities will probably be 100FPS less than what's in the data. Also, the overshot is to keep the bullet from falling out of the sabot. If you load one and it is held snugly, you can most certainly fire it without the overshot window.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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