148 Gr. DEWC powder change

[Orange Boy]

My question is two parts. The first is that I have been using Rainier 148 Gr. DEWC (copper plated) bullets in 38 special cases with 2.7 Gr. of Bullseye. I lightly crimp almost flush with the case mouth. I have had good results with this load and understand it has been a traditional load for many years. I now have a pound of Titegroup and would like to try it on the above loads. I understand that the Titegroup load data charge weights are similar to Bullseye, but I don't want to take anything for granted. The Hogden site only lists 148 Gr. HBWC as a bullet type and I'm not sure if it's safe to substitute DEWC? I'd like to hear about charge weights from anyone using Titegroup and the 148 Gr. DEWC.

Okay part two. I'm using a (new to me) Smith and Wesson Model 66-3 revolver with a 4" barrel to shoot paper with. I'm always at an indoor range and I shoot between 25 and 50 feet. The load described above is very accurate but seems to shoot about an inch low from point of aim. The Smith is only adjustable for windage. I have two choices as I see it, fiddle with the bullets and/or charge weights or shim the back of the sight up a hair. I'm a newbie with revolvers, so if I'm missing anything please feel free to clue me in on how I should best proceed. Thanks!

 

[zxcvbob]

HBWC and DEWC don't make any difference for light charges. (it took me a while to figure that out a few years ago) The pressure will be exactly the same. The difference only becomes significant with heavy loads -- the pressure is still the same but the HB's can't necessarily take it and can blow out at the base (causes inaccuracy) or have the head come completely off and leave the skirt in the barrel and cause an obstruction.

 

[Walkalong]

2.7 Grs of Bullseye is a classic with lead, but kind of light with plated. There will be a slight difference in velocities with the two, and seating depth will make a difference as well. I have never seen a Smith that was adjustable for windage but not elevation. Anyway, you need more recoil or more barrel time. You don't need to go lighter though. Not sure how you are going to get the POI up. I would start by trying more powder for a little more recoil and to help with possible stuck bullets and see what happens.

 

[zxcvbob]

The way to raise the POI when the sights are not adjustable is either file a little off the front sight, or use heavier bullets (like 158's.) Or figure out why you are pulling the shot down

 

[cheygriz]

158 grain bullets and 3.2 of Bullseye has been a factory duplication load forever.

2.7/2.8 Bullseye and a 148 wadcutter has been pretty much a standard for many match shooters.

If your 148 wadcutters are shooting low, try the 158 grainers and 3.2.

Also, check your owner's manual. IIRC, all S&W model 66 revolvers are adjustable for evelation.

 

[rcmodel]

The S&W Model 66-3 is only adjustable for windage.

No it isn't.

Every Model 66 Combat Magnum ever made has a fully adjustable rear sight with windage & elevation adjustments, unless somebody changed it to some other sight.

The big screw just in front of the sight blade click adjusts Elevation.
The one on the right side of the blade click adjusts Windage.



On another front:
Since you are loading wad-cutters in shorter .38 Special cases, and shooting them in a longer .357 chamber, try this.

Seat longer so the bullet gets a start into the chamber throat.
Better bullet alignment in the chamber will result.

Revolvers at one time used long seated wad-cutters for better accuracy.
The flush seated wad-cutter came about much more recently to work in S&W MOdel 52 & Colt 1911 .38 Special match auto-pistols.

Note the long seated wad-cutter in the center of this photo from an old Colt catalog.
It must have worked, because in 1931, Colt revolvers held every national NRA Bullseye and Police title in the nation!




rc

 

[Orange Boy]

I told you I was a revolver newb. I mistook the elevation screw for a mounting screw. Thanks to Walkalong, cheygriz and rcmodel for the scoop on the sights. Since I can adjust impacts to my hearts content now, part two is answered.

Interesting photo rcmodel. I will try seating the wadcutters longer and see how they shoot. When I do that, can I still use Bullseye 2.7 Gr. or will I have to modify charge weight for the extra space in the case?

How about when I change powders to Titegroup?

Thanks for all the great info here guys.

OB

 

[rcmodel]

Lymon #49 lists 150 SBWC (same as 148 SBWC) loads seated to 1.317" OAL.
That is sticking out of the 1.155" case .162" or, over 1/8" inch.
You might want to try going even longer in .357 chambers if you can without uncovering bullet lube grooves to reach into the chamber throats a little further.

Charges shown are:
Bullseye
3.1 start = 837 FPS
3.5 MAX = 917 FPS.

Titegroup
3.1 start = 854 FPS
3.5 MAX = 942 FPS.

rc

 

[Walkalong]

That is sticking out of the 1.155" case .162" or, over 1/8" inch

I am loading them in .357 brass for .357 revolvers and seating them about .100 out of the case. As rcmodel noted, you would have to seat them out more than 1/8" to get there with .38 Spl brass.

 

[Orange Boy]

Great information here...I had no idea that I could/should do this when working up a load to chamber in the longer .357 cylinder. Since I'm only loading Rainier copper washed 148. Gr. DEWC, lube grooves (as rcmodel cautioned) are not applicable. So, I decided to do a comparison test. I took 50 flush seated 38 specials and loaded up 50 seated about 1/8" past the case mouth. Both got a medium taper crimp. The flush seated ones got 2.7 Gr. Bullseye and the ones seated 1/8" out got 3.0 Gr. Bullseye. Both were accurate. Both were enjoyable to shoot at my local 50 ft. indoor range. I'm maybe not good enough a shooter or not shooting at far enough distances to see an appreciable difference? My groups were about the same and acceptable.

Now for a second question. I'd like to load them farther out. How far is too much? I'd run out of bullet before running out of cylinder in my Smith 66. I'm thinking about 55-60% of the bullet in the case and 40-45% out would be prudent. I don't think it would be safe to seat the bullet farther out. This would give me a maximum OAL of 1.385" using a 38 special case.

My Rainier DEWC are .546 in total length, so this proposed load would have about 0.217" of the copper DEWC showing. I would probably stick with 3.0 Gr. Bullseye.

What do you all think of my numbers? Shall I try this?

 

[rcmodel]

I don't see any real danger, but I have no idea what to suggest you do for the powder charge.

I have never seated any that far out, as copper plated HBWC is a new adventure for me too. In the past all I had ever used were lead so I always seated deep enough to cover the grease.

Seating that far out will surely decrease pressure though.
So just make sure they all get out of the barrel for a while, until you have shot enough of them to trust the load is not going to squib & stick one in the barrel.

As for a noticable accuracy improvement?
I was never good enough to tell the differance either.

But some of the top shooters in my Army AMU unit were.
We also could measure an improvement during Ransom Rest testing K-38's at 50 yards.
Not much, but enough to tell the differance.

rc

 

[Black_Talon]

Now for a second question. I'd like to load them farther out. How far is too much? I'd run out of bullet before running out of cylinder in my Smith 66. I'm thinking about 55-60% of the bullet in the case and 40-45% out would be prudent. I don't think it would be safe to seat the bullet farther out. This would give me a maximum OAL of 1.385" using a 38 special case.

I've experimented with seating HBWCs out into the cylinder throats (of K38 S&Ws) several times over the years. The OAL I typically use is 1.325", with powder charges generally ending up about 10% higher than the same loads with the bullet seated flush with the end of the case. Theoretically this could/should give better accuracy, but I have never been able to see any noticeable difference down range.

 

[Orange Boy]

Thanks Rcmodel and Black Talon. I think to be on the safe side I will use an OAL of 1.325" and 3.0 Gr. of Bullseye to start.