15,000 rds in an AR without cleaning.

[benEzra]

I've always wanted a carbine but I've watched them jam too many times. Perhaps it's operator error but isn't it a design flaw when it takes special (relative to most firearms) care to keep it running?

I would suggest that it *doesn't* take special care relative to most firearms to keep it running (just lubrication every 500-1000 rounds, perhaps, which is no more than you'd do with a pump shotgun or a pistol). That is, if you get one using decent parts, make sure it was put together properly, and use good magazines.

That was the point of my first post upthread---that a lot of the (false) reputation for AR unreliability comes from low-grade or improperly assembled frankenguns and guns using worn-out magazines. If you set up your car with loose or missing lug nuts, don't blame GM if you lose a wheel, and if you set up your AR with an unstaked gas key or worn-out/off-brand magazines, don't blame Eugene Stoner if the rifle short-strokes or fails to feed.

Having said that, some configurations (rifle length and midlength gas systems) are easier on parts than others (carbine length gas systems, suppressed guns). But I'd point out that the gun in the OP was apparently running a carbine length gas system and it still went 16K rounds without breaking or being cleaned.

I'm not sure who first said it here on THR, but it is entirely true that the AK platform is far more accurate than it is given credit for, and the AR platform is far more reliable than it is given credit for.

 

[OhioChief]

I personally don't understand why you wouldn't clean your gun regularly. I enjoy it. breaking it down, cleaning it, and making it ready for the safe again. it's all part of the process. If you love guns, what part of cleaning is such tough thing to do? 2 cents. whatever.

 

[benEzra]

I personally don't understand why you wouldn't clean your gun regularly. I enjoy it. breaking it down, cleaning it, and making it ready for the safe again. it's all part of the process. If you love guns, what part of cleaning is such tough thing to do? 2 cents. whatever.

I think most people do clean regularly, but for a defensive firearm, it's nice to know that it will still work reliably even if it happens to get dirty. And in this case, I suspect the owner was purposely refuting the "AR's won't run dirty" myth.

 

[Hangingrock]

I finished out my enlistment with 3rd BN 8th Marines at GITMO Cuba. That was a long-long time ago. We twenty some thing year old E-5 Sgt’s on occasion would discuss our experiences among ourselves. Basically we were M-14 type people with little regard for the M16. This wasn’t BS but combat experience based. Very few if any liked or cared for the M-16.

Fast forward decades to the current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and talk with current crop of Marines and their experiences would not mirror those of us from Vietnam. Different time and place the M16 has evolved.

The only constant in life is change but the caliber and platform to an extent is still being questioned.

 

[kwelz]

Hangingrock, most of the people questioning it are REMFs or Media. I know a number of soldier and marines, none of them have had a complaint about the M4s performance.

 

[blackwalnut]

AR with 15000 rounds

Where is the truth? Hangingrock has a good point. No one questions the AKs reliability. Why is this still an issue with the AR? No one answers the question. Same platform basically and caliber. I still hear too many negatives about it. This is not meant to be an AR bashing but where is the truth? The groundhog hunters and gunshop gurus dont count in this debate only because firing a few rounds at hogs or burning up a 200 round economy pack at the range all afternoor is another story. And these guys keep adding un-necessary aftermarket parts on them to make them reliable too. So what gives? All kinds of contractors money from these rifles. Some companys have been supplying the gov with parts for over 25-30 years like Defence Procurement Military Systems (DPMS) and of course Colt and others. Making $$$$$ is where its at and there is nothing wrong with that but who wants to kill the golden goose?

Where is the truth? We will never really know. Tooling up costs money too.

I may buy one someday. Just to have a service rifle and to be a good American. As Fox Mulder queried "the truth is out there".

Lots of money to be made yet in the military and civilian markets.

 

[blackwalnut]

15000 rounds without cleaning?

I do not own an AR15. I have read too much history from the Vietnam War and to the present. Direct gas impingement may work better on larger calibers such as the Llungman and the Hakim but it has its limitations it appears with the 5.56. Think about it why would you want all that gas blowing back into the bolt and carrier mechanism.? Doesnt all the carbon and heat jeopardize reliability? The military is again on search for a replacement rifle and doesnt that prompt a question? Its seems that this country has a military history of developing and redeveloping arms that should be retired. You cant make a silk purse out a sows ear. ARs are great on a clean range but even then I watch people struggle and complain. What is the truth? I think the truth is somewhere between the past and the present. I have friends that served in Vietnam and more recently in other places along with talking to soldiers on leave from Iraq. No one raves about them. So again where is the truth? I dont think we will ever know. There is a tremendous aftermarket for these rifles and that generates $$$$$. Trijicon, Aimpoint and others are cashing in on this with the troops. Money is made everywhere and I repeat I am not against making $$$$. But think about it why kill the golden goose. How many AR companys have been around 20-30 years selling parts to the government? The ground hog hunters and plinkers are one part of the picture and the troops are another. They deserve the best to do their job and save their own skins and others to boot. I know vets that own ARs and the much abused AKs, Saigas, SKSs, FN FALS, Cetmes, Sig 556s,M1As and some still dont like the AR in war but on the range its Ok. I do believe if you maintain it it will probably work. One soldier told me he cleaned and checked every chance he got just about. Again where is the whole truth?
Still uncertainty seems to lurk around this rifle. No one argues the AKs reliability so why is the ARs reliability the eternal question. No this is not meant to be an AR bash its just not clear to me what the truth is. I still may buy one just to have something close to the service rifle as a good American.
A SIG556 is just too expensive now. They escalated around the end of 2008. Wonder why? Again I still may get one.

PS This is actually my first reply that I lost so I am submitting it anyway.

 

[Ignition Override]

aka108:
A guy with my company (based elsewhere) was in Army Special Forces during Desert Storm.

We had a very brief chat on a EWR hotel shuttle, and nearing the hotel I asked him about US versus Russian-designed rifles.
The only thing that Rick told me was that in Iraq they had to pick up the enemies' AKs in order to have reliable guns.

He had no time to elaborate on the context, whether this happened in dust storms or not. On the other hand, we all know that systems are always improved over the years, not just in civilian technology.

I can make about two/three phone calls and find his cell phone number if requested. Friends of his work in our department, live near Hernando.

 

[Al Thompson]

IO, you've trotted this story out before. Has it occurred to you that one guy's experiences in a 3 day war almost 20 years ago versus the numerous folks posting here who actually have more than a year in the same place is just a waste?

We know more now about how to keep an AR running.

 

[longdayjake]

We had a very brief chat on a EWR hotel shuttle, and nearing the hotel I asked him about US versus Russian-designed rifles.
The only thing that Rick told me was that in Iraq they had to pick up the enemies' AKs in order to have reliable guns.

I have a relative that has been on three tours to Iraq and one to Afganistan. I have a co-worker that has been on two tours to Iraq. Both of them told me that the AK's that they saw were all shoddily made and some even had bent barrels or canted sights. Neither one of them felt that captured AKs were safe to shoot. One carried an m16 and the other carried an m4. It just goes to show you that ONE opinion from anyone that fought should not sway you to believe one way or the other.

 

[Justin]

No one questions the AKs reliability.

I do. Proportionally speaking, I've had more jams with AK-pattern rifles than ARs.

 

[ccsniper]

clearly this has went from a "wow, 16,000 rounds through an AR" to "AR vs AK" thread

 

[FLAvalanche]

Pmags aren't the be-all, end-all AR magazines. They're very well made, and run reliably, however, they're hardly a required piece of kit. I've got plenty of the old-style aluminum magazines that run just fine.

I agree. I've got plenty of old magazines that were...liberated from the military and they work just fine.

Granted it's nice to load up magazines with no-cant followers compared to the military ones but they run just fine.

 

[TonyAngel]

I'm not an LEO or soldier, nor have I ever been. I'm just a range jockey with an obessive/compulsive personality. Whenever I get into or take an interest in something, I try to learn as much about it as I can. Consequently, I've become sort of the go to guy when someone I know has problems with an AR. Don't get me wrong. I'm no pro and am still learning, but I have made a few observations.

The first observation is that a WELL BUILT AR will run and run and run. What I mean by well built is built using quality parts from a quality firm. The term "mil spec" seems to have become a buzz word that everyone is using and means almost nothing these days. The other half of being built right means that the parts are assembled properly.

I've seen guys with rifles that they "built" from "kits" that they got from some no name companies and then they wonder why the rifle won't run right. A lot of the problems were very simple. Stupid stuff like substandard extractor/ejector springs or substandard extractors. Or gas keys not being staked properly and the screws coming loose resulting in severely locked up rifles. Gas blocked being misaligned or pinned in the wrong place. Cheap gas tubes that don't seal up properly. Rifles with over sized gas ports that result in sticking cases (especially the steel cased stuff).

In many cases there is a problem with the build that doesn't manifest itself until the rifle gets a little dirty.

In most cases, guys only know enough about the built or bought rifle to operate it or piece it together and when it doesn't work, they simply say "well, it's an AR" and then they start talking about how unreliable the AR is. I really don't think that this is fair to the platform.

The biggest problem with the AR is that it's so simple in design that many, if not most, don't understand how it works and only figure that if it looks right it must be right.

When I got my first AR years and years ago, I was a fanatic about keeping it clean. Now, it's different. I currently have two ARs. That's all I need. I have a 14.5" carbine that I converted to piston and a 16" carbine that is still DI. I quit cleaning the piston AR. The most it gets is an occassional wipe down on the inside and a swabbing of the bore. With the DI rifle, I just clean it when I feel like it. Since it is my "precision" rig, I do regularly clean the bore, but I don't worry too much about the rest of it.

From what I've seen, as long as an AR is PROPERLY lubed, it will keep running regardless of how dirty it is. The lube helps to displace the crud. I think I even saw someplace on the net where a guy got his rifle running again by lubing it with vagisil. I don't think that he was saying that you can lube your rifle with Vagisil, but I think he was trying to state the importance of having something in there to help displace the crud.

In any case, sorry for the long winded post, but the criticism of the AR platform is just unfounded and is based on misplaced blame.

 

[Ratdog68]

Tony Angel? Ya done good with that post. Well said.

This whole mentality that continually creeps up from the "I've never owned XYZ gun... BUT...." crowd... it really gets old. Basing an opinion on what you've read someone else write... well... it's the classic "sheeple" approach and is a display of utter ignorance.

 

[MisterPX]

Five years ago I heard all these stories about how the AR can't run dirty, etc. etc. and so forth. So, I slapped together a test rifle, and went about testing. What most people see is teh "freindly" pictures, as my other pics of the test rifle have gotten all kinds of insults thrown at me, even though the outcome was teh 16K rounds with no real malfunctions, even after "conducting" other external tests on teh rifle.

 

[TonyAngel]

"Friendly" pics? What were the unfriendly pics of? Possible abuse or were you doing nasty things to your rifle.

 

[benEzra]

No one questions the AKs reliability. Why is this still an issue with the AR? No one answers the question.

Like I said, I think it's this:

It's annoying when someone takes an AR including some or all of the following characteristics:

---built from the cheapest-on-the-market kit of low-grade parts;
---assembled in a half-gluteal fashion without much attention to torque and staking (whether at home or by a mass-market manufacturer);
---run with only a drop or two of lubricant in accordance with the "AR's should never ever ever be run wet" mythos;
---fed with milsurp USGI aluminum magazines that are way beyond serviceable;

and then the person generalizes the inevitable failures of the Frankengun as applying to AR's, and posts it all over the Internet. Bonus points if they throw in the phrase "poops where it eats" (which it doesn't), and double bonus if they compare a mis-assembled $750 kit gun to a $1500-$2500 piston gun running PMAG's and gripe about how it's all the fault of the DI system.

Once an Internet myth gets going---"AR's are unreliable", "Glocks kaboom", "AK's are about as accurate as shotguns"---they tend to be self-perpetuating. In fact, properly manufactured and assembled AR's are extremely reliable, Glocks are exceedingly unlikely to blow up when shooting, and a halfway decent AK with halfway decent ammunition will stay on a pie plate or better at 200 yards.

 

[blackwalnut]

reply to Justin and to BenEzra

I have not seen an AK ever quit however it is a mechanical device and I concede that devices fail. Its sounds like one experience to me .

In reply to BezEzra I agree that a lot of internet crap and "common knowledge" muddys up the waters of truth. I also agree that building kit rifles can be an invitation to trouble and I also wonder why someone would build a kit rifle with all the wonderful models that many companys offer that are ready to go. In the old days 15 years ago I knew guys who were building kit rifles to beat the cost and build a "better rifle". Now some of these same persons also went to the Home School of 1911 building too. In both cases there lack of real knowledge and access to an FFL made them dangerous and consequently there types fostered alot of myth and misinformation. I dont believe the questions will be answered and I am sure that the answer has been lost in the smoke from the rifle range. I have wondered at the simplicity of General Kalashnikovs rifle and also noticed that the AR was conceived from a different set of paradigms in its design and complexity. As far as I am concerned I am getting more curious than ever about owning one instead of experiencing rifles belonging to others. I for one would buy one and leave it stock! I dont get radical with my firearms maybe a set of Hogue grips on a handgun. A Timney trigger and a Douglas barrel is about as wild as I get on a rifle and that was professionally done and my FN works and shoots. I apologize if my reply was taken as AR bashing. However to those who remember the movie "Roadie" the character Travis Redfish said "everything will work if you let it". Lets not squabble anymore. I do own AKs, Glocks, Sigs and have had Government models and M1 carbines. Oh and an 2 SKSs . I will get another 1911 and probably an AR too. Still where is the truth Fox Mulder?

 

[surfinUSA]

Well I'm not military, vietnam or our latest conflicts, however, I have always found the AR15/M16 design to be reliable, accurate and a stone cold killer in civilian police work.

Do I love my L1A1 in 762x51? Yeah, damn right. Its also a stone cold killer, but its not approved for carry by my Department and its heavy as hell like an M14 and neither of which are as accurate as the AR in the average range that police use these weapons.

Either way, the bottom line here is regardless if it a handgun, shotgun, or rifle its cleaned everytime I use it. Why, because I and the people that work for me depend on it working (this isn't some internet BS threortical test) Plus my DAD, God rest his soul (who was an Army Ranger) tought my brothers and me that the sun never sets on a dirty gun unless you're using it against someone.

 

[fireman 9731]

You know... I never had anything against ARs... until I came here...

I never have wanted one, and probably never will have one. They just don't do anything for me. The ergonomics don't mesh with me, I cant justify the cost, It doesn't do anything that my other guns cant do... ect, ect, ect...

Anyway, what I do have against ARs now is that it seems like most of the owners (or at least the vocal ones) think that they have God's gift to the firearms world. Their AR is just the best ever made, it has the best tactical add-ons in the very best configurations, It has these fancy and expensive sights that flip up when their battery powered optic craps out, It has NEVER jammed, NEVER will, and it shoots 0.0000341 MOA groups all day long.

Give me a break.

Every AR vs. AK (or anything else) thread always turns into the uppity AR owners going on and on about how their gun is just a million times better than any other gun in the world.

Seriously don't get so jealous and defensive because somebody else's $400 AK, $200 Hi-Point, or $75 Mosin shoots every time they pull the trigger, hits where they are aiming, with surplus mags and ammo, and didn't cost 4 truck payments.

Just because you own an AR doesn't make you any better than anybody else in the world, so please stop acting like it.

 

[surfinUSA]

Fireman9731, I never had anything against firemen until I had to start investigating them (maybe the public should start doing more public records requests like they do with police) go put out fires and leave the shooting and comments about it to those of us that do it for a living.

My AR is a basic one with A1 sights that once set can bounce around in a car trunk for 100 years and still be ready when you need them.

 

[Mags]

shoots every time they pull the trigger, hits where they are aiming, with surplus mags and ammo, and didn't cost 4 truck payments.

My ARs do all of that, I think you are heavily misinformed.

Just because you own an AR doesn't make you any better than anybody else in the world, so please stop acting like it

I thought everyone in the world had an AR.

 

[Carter]

Why does every AR or AK thread always turn in to an argument...

Or every DI vs Piston thread...

Although, Fireman 9731 has a point: AR owners are highly touchy and argumentative.
But Piston owners are also highly argumentative and taunting.

Congrats on the AR doing well, congrats on the piston doing well. Get over the other "team" and its decision.

 

[Tirod]

22 years in the Army Reserves, served with hundreds of vets from every conflict starting with the Korean Police Action to Kosovo. None ever claimed they had to pick up an AK to get a reliable shooting gun. Many did claim they would shoot at the distinctive sound to suppress enemy fire.

It's probably the biggest BS story told to suckup wannabees ever perpetrated. Nobody tells these whoppers to anybody with a hint of experience except as a joke. All others are fair game. Those that believe it are only exposing their own lack of knowledge and experience.

The whole focal point of AK reliability is the magazine. It's made right, and hard to damage. The AK itself, well, go buy a Century and be another poster whining about malfunctions and misfeeds. GO SEARCH IT, there are dozens of posts about help me fix my cheap AK it won't fire.

ALL CHEAP JUNK GUNS HAVE PROBLEMS. Try finding a Jennings or first generation Keltec that doesn't. Why do so many have the impression that just because it's a copy of a certain model it will be reliable? Self delusion and ignorance. Even the high dollar gunmakers have their bad days, Colt itself went thru a period of stupid that endangered it's reputation, while it was a contract supplier.

It's not about AR vs AK, or Ford vs Chevy. It's about good engineering, expert assembly, and appropriate maintenance. In this case, the firearm in question would function without cleaning, but not without parts being replaced.

I read of some who see "a lot of AR's jamming" but the real deal the military uses has an average of 2.500 COMBAT rounds thru it before stoppages, not cheap low powered import ammo in surplused magazines the armorer DX'd, or a box of gun show mags that should always be suspect for the simple fact that why would an AR shooter get rid of his good ones? Whatever is seen on a public range, it's NOT an issue M4 or M16. I've seen and conducted live fire exercises as Range Safety Officer and malfunctions were always prevented by the mandatory inserting of CLP in every weapon coming on line - and most lazy soldiers didn't like it. They are too inexperienced to understand it actually helps clean the weapon more quickly.

These threads pop up a lot, the misinformed with no military service quote heresay evidence, and a lot of very old BS is thrown about the M16 A Nothing, four generations ago. Can the AK shoot accurately, sure, put some good ammo down an accurate barrel,not the stuff bought because it's cheap. Does the AR have to be extensively cleaned to operate? No, just lube it per the TM instructions. Professionals in both camps understand this, and the laugh is on all those who keep repeating the same myths fed to them by the equally uninformed.

It's the quickest way to sort out the sheep and the goats.