155 Grain Palma Match

[Delmar]

Was quite anxious to try the newer Palma Match 155 gr bullets in my 308-the b.c listed at .502 or so and because the older 155 grain Match Kings did well, I thought I would take them for a spin.

To my surprise, they grouped worse than any sierra match bullet I had ever tried in my rifle. With a 44 grain charge of IMR4064, was getting 2 MOA at 100 yards.

The rifle is a late 90s production Remington Varmint Synthetic, completely stock. 1:12 twist 26 inch barrel. Old style trigger which I adjusted myself. Leupold Vari X III scope with Leupold double dovetail rings and bases.

So, back to the reloading bench. On the advice of a few folks, I tried upping the charge with even worse results, tried Reloader 15, H4895, Varget and nothing very pleasing or really hopeful.

Results for the day. High 60s temp and a bit windy, maybe 10-15 MPH right to left.

Top left bullseye 47 grains of RL15-10 shots
Top right bullseye 47 grains IMR4064-10 shots
Lower left bullseye 47 grains H4895-10 shots
Lower right bullseye 47 grains Varget-10 shots

Center bullseye 41 grains RL15 and 175 grain Sierra Match kings. 30 shots.

New full sized Lapua brass, Federal 210M primers. Bullets seated 2.815 as Remington has a long leade, but still fit the magazine.

Sort of depressing because I had good performance from the old 155 Matchkings, but just cant get what I am after with the newer, slicker Palmas.

 

[345 DeSoto]

Try lowering the charge.

 

[phonejack]

I tried using the 155's in several long range matches like the Palma shooters were required to use. I quit using them when I realized that the 175's I normally used held the "wind" better.

 

[Delmar]

I hear ya phonejack. Sierra makes 2 different styles of 155s. The older Match King does pretty well in my rifle but this Palma Match just doesn't group well at all for me. My Remington has a really long leade which might be the issue. I cannot seat the bullet close to the lands and keep enough of the bullet in the case. Even at that, it would be a single shot and Id have to remove the bolt to pull a loaded round out of the chamber.

It really seems to like the 168s and 175 Match Kings a lot, with the 175 being a bit tighter.

I had ideas of the 155 being good for up to 600 meter shoots, being able to drive it to 3000 fps and shoot a bit flatter, but I will take the wind bucking ability of the 175 and be very happy.

My 150 grain hunting ammo, Hornady 150 gr BTSP interlocks group at an inch at 100 lol

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just a few things...

@ only 100 yards you will see no benefit at all from a BT bullet.

The distance from the rifling shouldn't matter much at only 100 yards either.

You will see no benefit with the 155gr Palma Match bullet over the 155gr MatchKing until you are well past 600 yards.

You tried 4 different powders but only 1 charge weight for each. How can you proclaim you can't find a good load with only 1 charge weight? Pick the powder you have had success with before and do a proper workup or better yet, stick with the 155gr MatchKing or the 175gr MK bullets since you said it's been very accurate for you, especially if you're not shooting longer ranges. None of those BTHP bullets start to show their stuff until you are out past 600 yards and the 155gr Palma Match bullet was designed for 1,000 yards.

 

[Delmar]

Not my first dance, Archangel. I know that boat tailed bullets don't show any superiority until a few hundred yards at least. The boat tail is for better stability in the transonic range which, depending on your load could be several hundred yards out.

If I was only shooting @100 yards and no more, I would go to a hand loaded round nose hornady which in my rifle, will do things a lot of folks might not expect. I used the 100 yard range to see what might be possible.

Its been my experience that some bullets tolerate jump better than others. Some of the VLD bullets like to be really close and for some, actually jammed into the rifling.

I did do some workups on a couple of different powders for the PM bullets which I did not post. The surprising part to me was how far they scattered. In working up other loads for different weight match kings, they have started at about 1.5 MOA to include the 155 MK pre palma match. The 47 grain RL15 was the identical load I used in the older MKs.

I don't have any spare barrels lying around to test it, but after checking 4 powders and a few length COAL, I thought that I would be able to do better than 2 moa. I suspect a dedicated PM rifle would have a leade designed for this particular style of bullet shape.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Ouch, if you did all that work and still got those results your rifle really doesn't like those bullets.

Are the 155gr Palma bullet much longer than the 155gr MatchKing bullets? I know it's a long shot especially since your barrel stabilizes a 175gr bullet but is it possible the Palma bullets aren't stabilizing?

 

[Delmar]

I thought about the length of the bullet too, and they are quite a bit longer than the 155 Match Kings. If I can get to a 300 yard range I would like to see if they might stabilize at the longer distance. To be honest, I did wonder if the 175s would hold a group at 100 or needed more range to go to sleep and quit wobbling

 

[BigBore45]

rifling twist is to slow. i run a heart 1:10.25 for my .308. those are my 1000yd bullets period. run 4064 at 2950 fps

 

[ArchAngelCD]

rifling twist is to slow. i run a heart 1:10.25 for my .308. those are my 1000yd bullets period. run 4064 at 2950 fps

That's what we are talking about already. The only reason I'm not sure is, that barrel is stabilizing the 175gr SMK bullets.

 

[jwrowland77]

Rifling twist is not to slow. I run 178's from my 1:12 twist.

I've been reading I've this and thinking about it, as I've ran these bullets and they worked great for me. Not as good at the 600yd line as 175's but still good results.

I'll be back after I do some more thinking.

I also did my testing at 100yds using OCW method. That's why it has me baffled that you didn't get at least 1 MOA at 100. I run a Rem 700 SPS varmint 26" barrel as well.

 

[jwrowland77]

Can you get your hands on some 4064?

Also, a 10-15mph wind of course doesn't help any but 100yds isn't that far. It should affect it that much.

Of course I've been wrong before.

Me personally, I would probably go out bright and early one morning while it's less windy and shoot the same loads.

Did you do a OCW workup or go in .5 gr or more increments?

 

[BigBore45]

Rifling twist is not to slow. I run 178's from my 1:12 twist.

I've been reading I've this and thinking about it, as I've ran these bullets and they worked great for me. Not as good at the 600yd line as 175's but still good results.

I'll be back after I do some more thinking.

I also did my testing at 100yds using OCW method. That's why it has me baffled that you didn't get at least 1 MOA at 100. I run a Rem 700 SPS varmint 26" barrel as well.

the heavier the bullet the faster you want the rifling. 178 is way heavier than 155 i do not understand this?

 

[BigBore45]

how many rounds are threw the barrel?

 

[jwrowland77]

the heavier the bullet the faster you want the rifling. 178 is way heavier than 155 i do not understand this?

That is correct. Heavier the bullet, the faster the twist you want.

He's stabilizing a 175 and great accuracy, but the 155 is shooting crappy. That's what's got me scratching my head as well.

 

[BigBore45]

kinda wondering if hes is not starting to get throat erosion? im gonna go measure my palmas.

 

[BigBore45]

after comparing to a 168 gr. match king i know for sure that not near as much of the 155 palma is touching rifling. also they are the same OAL. but the tapper on the 155 is slower, also the 155 has a much more pronounced bow-tail almost twice as long as the 168 gr. that is where the rifling touch is missing on the 155. still gonna stick with throat erosion till i know the number of rounds fired through barrel.

 

[Delmar]

Big Bore 45, as I stated in my original post, the twist rate is 1:12, and about 800 rounds through the bore. As I have less than a thou through this barrel, I don't believe its throat erosion.

Jrowland, I did not work it up in .2 grain increments mainly because I was so disturbed about going 2MOA and larger with 44 grains of IMR 4064. I throttled up 3 grains to see if the groups would shrink and as you can tell from my target, the groups grew. I do have a dozen 155 PM's left to test, and I am going to drop the charge down to minimum to see if it helps. That really defeats my original intention of about 3000fps and less drop at medium range.

The reason for the 47 grains of Reloader 15 was that was my accuracy load on the older match kings which gave me excellent results. I figured that I would have to play with that charge on the PM's because the bullet is longer, but that it would get me in the ballpark. No dice. I do have a pound of 4064, but from all the studies I have seen, the 4064 tends to work better in heavier grain weights such at 168s on up.

I have run bullet weights from Nosler 125gr BTs to Hornady 180 gr flat base soft points and I have never seen bullets scatter so badly as I have with these Palma bullets. Scared me so bad that I thought it was me or something on the rifle loose, so I followed up without cleaning with the 175 MKs and my world calmed down a bit-whewwww!

I had heard through "tribal knowledge" that 168 grain bullets were about the best that a 1:12 twist would stabilize, but I have found that not to be true in my particular case. I have run the 175 MKs, 180 grain Hornady SPs, and Nosler 180 BTs all with good results.

As Big Bore 45 has mentioned, the 155 Palma Match has that long boat tail plus a long tapered nose, which really doesn't leave a whole lot of bearing surface to catch the lands. From what I can find out about dedicated Palma rifles, they run as slow as a 1:13 twist but they also have 30+inch barrels and of course, minimum chambers in order to keep the bullet over Mach 1 at a thousand yards. That's a long ways away from a factory Remington.

 

[jwrowland77]

Can you get your hands on some 2000-MR? If you can, grab some. I've had great success with it. It actually shrinks the groups the hotter the load. I'm pushing a 178gr bullet almost 2750fps with it. I've seen groups shrink over multiple bullet weights the hotter the load.

 

[jwrowland77]

Jrowland, I did not work it up in .2 grain increments mainly because I was so disturbed about going 2MOA and larger with 44 grains of IMR 4064. I throttled up 3 grains to see if the groups would shrink and as you can tell from my target, the groups grew. I do have a dozen 155 PM's left to test, and I am going to drop the charge down to minimum to see if it helps. That really defeats my original intention of about 3000fps and less drop at medium range.



.

That's the big reason I moved away from the lighter bullets to the 175's and now the 178's and pushing them hot but accurate.

They have more energy due to the mass they have being pushed at a high velocity. I switched the the 178's to shoot at my 600 and 1000yd matches. Less drop due to weight and speed being pushed. The 178's I run now and the speed I run them, I could reach 1250yds with my .308 per ballistics program I use.

 

[Delmar]

Can you get your hands on some 2000-MR? If you can, grab some. I've had great success with it. It actually shrinks the groups the hotter the load. I'm pushing a 178gr bullet almost 2750fps with it. I've seen groups shrink over multiple bullet weights the hotter the load.

Thanks for the tip sir! This particular rifle has a long history or responding well to max or near max loads in all of the bullet types I have tried. Powder availability being what it is, spotty at best, I will keep my eye out for the 2000MR. Have also heard that CFE223 also does well in the 308 but I have not tried it.

I have not tried the 178 gr A-Max, or I assume that's the bullet you speak of. So far, the 175 gr MKs show the best accuracy in this rifle, with the 168MK close behind. I will certainly give them a try and see what is what.

I would like to get into some F class competition and I was wondering if this rifle would make the cut, given a decent load. It will hold 1MOA or better out to 500 yards, but I have not had the opportunity to test it further.

 

[jwrowland77]

I haven't tried CFE223 yet but have been meaning too.

Actually, the 178gr bullet I'm using is the Hornady Match BTHP bullet. BC of .530. I kept going back and forth between wanting to try the A-Max or the Match bullet and with everything I read, I went with the Match bullet.

My f-class rig is a rem 700 SPS. Most this year I shot it with stock everything. Just recently changed trigger and stock though.

 

[Jim Watson]

Unlike the others, I would not waste time and barrel life and accumulate partial cans of powder trying to force those Palmas to shoot.

I would stock up on 175s and hit the range. They will do fine for F-T/R. I used a bunch of them before I got interested in 155s. The Sierras did not show me anything; Scenars are OK but no better than 175 MKs. I will probably go back to them when I exhaust the big box of Scenars. A friend who is into it a lot more seriously than me is shooting 185 Berger Hybrids and looking at heavier bullets still.

 

[BigBore45]

i would just stay with the 175's. the only nice think about the 155's is the speed. i live in kansas and it is windy here all the time. my 168's buck the wind way better. the main reason for the 155's for me is to go passed 1000 yards because even with my 20 moa canted scope mount im done with adjustment with any other bullet a little passed 1100 yds, but the 155's get me to 1250 yds. i have rarely shot this far as 1000 yds is my max most of the time and 800 yds sees the most action because of wind. on those 5 no wind days a year shooting past 1000yds is awesome to try. note not to much success on that.

 

[rodregier]

Try seating as long as possible and single-load a few as an experiment.

My guess is the long jump to the leade in the throat is what's degrading the accuracy.

At least then you'll know.