180gr. XTP in 38 brass

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olywa

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I'm interested in loading 180gr XTPs to the lower cannelure in 38 brass to shoot in my 357's. I've got a 4" Security Six and a 2" SP101. My powder on hand is Unique and 2400. Has anyone tried this combo? If so, what kind of performance are you getting?

The overall length in 357 brass, when seating to the lower cannelure, is just too great for my SP101 and questionable in the Security Six cylinder as well. Any advice?
 
Disclaimer-
Warning: the below methods are at user risk only. Niether THR or staff are reponsible for the results

Do you have a chrono? If so: Use 2400. Start with the lowest listed load for a 158 grain slug for a 38+p load. Work up from there.

If you do not have a chrono I HIGHLY reccomend you do not pursue this.

I can't give you exact charge weights, because when I did this I was using 357 brass in a redhawk, and I get dang near 357 max preformance out oif it.

I am assuming you are an experienced reloader that knows how to chrono map?

If you are not, please say so, and I can post the details about pressure signs, chrono mapping etc. This isn't something for a new reloader to dive into in my opinion.
 
It won't expand at 38 speeds, so my question is why load it in 38 brass?
 
Ben - thanks for the input. I'm actually pretty new to reloading but I've read a lot regarding pressure signs and so on. No chrono just yet but it's on my wish list. I've had pretty good luck so far with 357 and 44 Mag loading LSWCs in pretty standard weights (158gr and 240gr respectively). I am naturally cautious though, and wanted to see if this was a combo that somebody else might have some data on.

HSMITH - I hadn't considered the expansion but that makes sense. I had some 180 XTPs that I picked up for my new Contender 357 Max barrel and thought that a big, heavy bullet in 38 brass might make for a pretty good field load in my 357. I was hoping that it could be loaded to some pretty stout pressures since it was going to be used in a Ruger 357. I actually wanted to try some 180 hard cast bullets but couldn't find any locally.
 
second cannelure is for use in single shot pistols NOT 38 special cases. If you just have to load them in a 38 special case I would find some older reloading manuals or data that list the 200 gr super police load and work from there.
 
Olywa - I'm sure you know that the diminished case capacity will substantially increase pressures over the same load in a mag case, but the .357 does not exhibit the classic overpressure signs you'll be looking for until you're way up there. That is why the chronograph is so important here. I've considered trying something similar and decided it was not worth the risk. If you try it please be very careful, we need all the gunnies we can get here in the NW.
 
Ifishsum - Thanks for your comments. I think I'll stick with 357 cases for now and keep my eyes open for some 180gr Lasercasts. Maybe I'll putz around with this idea again when I get a little more experience and pick up a chronograph. At least I now know that others have considered it.
 
Olywa: following Ben Shepherds thoughts and advisory, there is another approach. Ben's words of wisdom are very valid. The following method is not recommended except to those who have the experience to feel confident in using it!

This kind of load does come up in discussion from time to time with guys that want a good load for a smaller .357s carried as a hunting back-up, or more likely, a coup-des-gras (coupe-de-gracie as I call it) handgun to put down an animal that just don't want to give it up, and naturally, good shot placement should prevent the problem to begin with. If you have a case trimmer, you can trim .357 Mag brass to .38 Sp. length, I use 1.150" that is .005" shorter than the max case length for the .38 Special. I call mine .357 Short Magnum and typically load them with 125/140 gr. JHPs for snubs with short ejector rods, and 7 shooters for others that have them when they experience sticky extraction with full length cased factory ammo or handloads. This is something you probably don't have a problem with using either a Security Six or the SP-101. This will allow you to use heavier/longer bullets, but NOT powder chargeweights for .357 Magnum loads. You can find data for this in older editions of the SPEER reloading manual, mine is the #11. The dimensions are a bit different because the 180 gr. SPEER bullet of that day did not have a lower crimp groove. I haven't done this with the 180 gr. XTP, but it may be possible to keep OACL in spec by crimping in the LOWER crimp groove. Might be more trouble for you than it's worth for you. Chargeweights of powder will have to be approached in the manner Ben Shepherd mentioned, but I would not use Unique or 2400, but rather, something in-between. If you decide to go forward with this project, hollar here or by PM and we can get into specifics about how to approach start loads.

This came up at Ruger Forum with a shooter that carried an SP-101 in .357 Magnum in the field and just had to use a 180 gr. bullet. I recommended the Short Magnum load with AA#7 and he reported the load was outstanding. I've used a number of powders for the SM load and #7 is going to be hard to beat. V-V 3N37 is another good one, N-350 as well but I haven't used it for this. There are several powders in this burn rate range that are suitable. You can use Unique if you just don't want to purchase another powder, velocity will be limited, but I wouldn't use 2400, not in a 4" Security Six and definitely not a 2" SP-101. You won't get complete ignition in either. By using powders that are slightly faster than those advertised as magnum powders when shooting shorter barrelled revolvers, you can get all the velocity you want without all of the muzzle-blast. AA#7 gives accuracy to make it worthwile. Unique is a bit fast in this case. I use Blue Dot in some .357 Magnum loads, but I wouldn't choose it for this type of load and never for a load that might see use as a defense load. Flash will be bright! Not a concern for a hunting/backup load, but complete ignition will be.

There is another thing to consider: RECOIL! From a 2" SP-101, you'll get plenty of it with anything other than medium level loads. Even with full length .357 Magnum cases, 180 gr. Bullets take recoil to a level that is not defined by the difference in weight vs. a 158 gr. bullet. The 180s have very long bullet shanks, meaning more engagement with the barrels rifling/longer dwell time in the bore. 158 gr. .357 bullets have sectional density roughly equivelant to a 225 gr. .44 caliber bullet. I wouldn't load 158s in the shortened case because it will likely bulge the case, but a .357 magnum factory load, or handload in a full length case with a Jacketed Soft Point, or hard cast lead bullet will achieve sufficient penetration on game up to deer so long as it has adequate velocity when it leaves the barrel. I realize that you're probably looking for another way to use the 180 gr. XTP and you can, but for a good hunting load, 158s will get it done.;)
 
CZ57 - Lots of good info in your post to think about. I appreciate you taking the time to cover all that. I haven't used AA#7 yet but now I'm kind of interested in giving it a try. Think I'll save those 180gr XTPs for my Max. The box of 158gr LSWC hard casts I just opened should keep me busy for a while. Thanks again.
 
As for the velocity/expansion thing- You should be able to get enough speed for modest expansion out of this combo. In the small guns recoil is going to be very heavy though.

As for powder choice- 3N37 can be a little um..*spikey* in the pressure dept. I still reccomend you do this with 2400.
It is a fairly forgiving as far as pressure spikes are concerned. You should run out of room for powder before you get any excessive pressure signs with 2400. NOTICE: I said should not will.

Regardless of powder choice- DO NOT pursue this until you have a reliable chrono avalible.
 
Spikey? That would be news to me. Especially since I have used it extensively in the application being discussed. 3N37 is a competition grade powder very suitable for use in high pressure cartridges. Not exactly a powder that would see so much use and get recommended as frequently if it were spikey. But hey, I'm open to knowledge, so I'd be interested in hearing about any experience where pressure spikes occurred, especially if pressure testing equipment was used. There are few powders better suited to loading the highest velocity 9mm +P loads. 3N37 also sees a good amount of use in .38 Super, .357 SIG, .40 S&W and 10mm. I also load +P 45 ACP with 3N37. I haven't pressure tested it with a strain gauge, but maybe you have? I have been at this long enough to know that if I had variations in pressure, the first place I'd notice it would be on a target, because groups would tend to be erratic with pressure spikes and velocity variation and that's just never been the case. In the high velocity loads I have used it for, accuracy is usually as good as any powder can achieve. As far as conventional signs of overpressure, I've had no problems in any of the calibers I've used it for. AA#7 works about the same and with a better price tag. It has also provided single hole groups from a 4" Smith 19 with a 140 gr. Rem. SJHP loaded for velocity around 1200 FPS.;)
 
CZ57:

Kinda like blue dot, just not nearly as severe IME. Tried a couple runs with it in 357, ended up hitting a pressure wall *right now* with just a .2 grain increase. 2400 has never done this to me, regardless of caliber.

I will admit however, that I will run loads well outside listed parameters. But they are for my guns, and are worked up very carefully. I imagine that some of my 357 loads are pushing 50,000. But these are for my redhawk only. In fact, in 357 cases with the 180 seated long, I run speeds that are in 357 max territory. I can safely run the 180 at 1500 with 2400 in the redhawk.

I'm no where near as ambitious as clark or a few other guys, and when I work up loads, I will do increases as small as .1 grain. I go for a target velocity with the given slug. When I hit a pressure sign, I then back it down .2 and do a final test run. If my velocity and accuracy are what I want, I keep it. If not, I start over.

Sounds like I may be one of those guys that push it hard enough that kinda makes you think "Get a bigger gun for heavens sake!"

I'll leave it at this- I push harder than most, but I do know the difference between hot and stupid. I go hot, but I don't go stupid.

Good Shooting 'ya all.
 
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Ben: like me, you must have gotten your hands on the first Vihta Vouri load data. In the first edition they took their .357 Magnum load data up to 44,963 PSI/CIP. The European CIP measurement system is very close to our CUP pressure measurement system. These loads were close to the older CUP pressure max of 46,000 for the .357 Magnum and near 50,000 PSI in the piezoelectric PSI system currently used by most ammo/component makers in the US, although a few have reverted back to CUP testing where magnum loads have gotten a little closer to the original CUP spec. I'm sure V-V wanted to impress us (the US) early on with their powders' performance, but they went to that level with all of their pistol powders, including their very fastest, N-310, which ranks a few numbers faster than even Bullseye. In such an extreme pressure range, yeah, I could easily understand where even a .1 grain increase over the previous charge could spike pressure, but only N-110 should have been used in the upper pressure range. I could hardly imagine that someone would choose N-310 (3N37 for that matter) to build such a load, but there was an article in Shooting Times when V-V powders first hit the street over here, and the author/reloader did take 3N37 with a .357 140 gr. JHP up to the extreme max level. Performance was impressive as was accuracy, but not a good choice for a extremely high pressure magnum load. Consequently, the max load in the second edition was the same charge as the start charge in the first edition. Pressure was 36,300 PSI/CIP.

What I took into consideration when I first started loading the .357 Short Magnum was the fact that .357 Magnum revolvers that will chamber the round can fire .38 Super +P ammunition with its much shorter case and pressure rating of 36,500 PSI. I never intended to take the .357 SM above 35,000 PSI. In truth, with the powders I've used, that did also include Blue Dot early on, I doubt that I've gone above 30,000 PSI. I discarded Blue Dot because of flash/muzzle blast and went to V-V 3N37 which is a bit faster and similar to IMR 800-X in burn rate. Blue Dot, or 800-X could be used for this type of load if muzzle blast is not an issue, like say for a field load. I haven't used 800-X, so I can't say for sure what flash would look like. The intended purpose was to find a powder that would achieve the desired velocity with a quicker pressure peak than say H-110, W-296, 2400 ETC. Some believe that pressure peak occurs in revolvers before the bullet has left the cylinder. I am not of that school and there is a very good technical article on the distance of barrel length required for pressure peak to occur, in the Lyman manual (Mine's the 46th) and was conducted for the US Army by H.P. White laboratories. It is a minute difference with time in microseconds, but it concludes that pressure peak occurs in the bore. With differences in burn rate, pressure peak occurs at slightly different distances in the bore. That's why I went with faster than magnum powders with this load intended for short barreled magnums. I used a 3" S&W model 65 for testing. Magnum powders have a higher velocity loss as you shorten the barrel, so finding a powder that has an optimum pressure peak for the length of the barrel is how I approached it. My shooting partner had a 4" Taurus Tracker 7-shooter that would not extract full length .357 Magnum cases without difficulty. The .357 SM also solved that dilemma. I recommend it to experienced reloaders that do shoot warm loads in Smiths with the shorter ejector rod, because it will extract, and while giving them all of the velocity they'll want from a small revolver.

At Accurate's website, they show load data, or did, above 43,000 CUP. The difference in velocity of the max charges of AA#7 and AA#9 is very slight in relative terms (especially with 150/158 gr. bullets) except for guys that really do go to the max., and I have loaded for the .357 Magnum Redhawk as well, so we know what that's about. Not the kinds of loads one is likely to use with a 4" K-Frame Smith, I hope. As you shoot the loads in revolvers with shorter barrel lengths, the slightly faster pressure peak of AA#7 will allow it to hold velocity better in the shorter barrel vs. AA#9. I mention #9 because I use it and love it in full length .357 Magnum cases. It is similar to 2400. Flash is much lower and complete ignition more likely. This is not a knock against Unique or 2400 for the guys that use them, but rather a recommendation for something in-between to optimize performance to the shorter barrel length of revolvers 4" and shorter.;)
 
CZ57: Sounds like we agree then. But I sometimes say "Heck with efficiency, I want more, period." Flash and blast are just unavoidable at these pressure/speed levels. And like you said these loads are not for any gun other than the redhawk. One note though- A taurus 6 shot 357 WILL chamber these long rounds!!:what: Yikes!! I'm not pulling the trigger though.

I won't post weights, as it will make moderators nervous. But trying for speed in the redhawk I had run out of case capacity with 2400 and 296, blue dot got unhappy, so I tried 3N37. It went further than blue dot, but when it *hit the wall* it *hit the wall*. And even then the 296 loads,though slightly slower, were much more stable, so I just run them now.

Just one of those "Lets see what I can do" kind of things.
 
Ben, I'd bet you'd like AA#9 then. It will produce as much velocity in the .357 as any powder. It's very dense so you won't have to worry as much about case capacity. I think it's the optimum powder for full pressure loads in large .357 magnum revolvers. Works really well in .41 also. Plenty of .44 Magnum cases get loaded with it as well although the slightly slower ones are probably better suited to the case capacity. Haven't got around to trying 4100, but the data is impressive. You can get the CUP data at www.accuratepowder.com
Along with the velocity, accuracy has been impressive.;)
 
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