1860 and 1861, an Army/Navy Question.

[Thefabulousfink]

A friend of mine just picked up a reproduction 1860 Army in .44 cal. Now this looks almost identical to the 1861 Navy except for the caliber. What I am wondering, is what is the difference between the 1860 and the 1861? Other than the caliber, I think that there might be a difference in the shape of the grips.

My other question is would putting Navy style grips on an Army be as simple as switching the grips, backstrap, and possibly the mainspring?

Anyone with a better knowledge of these guns please help.

Thank you

 

[ArmedBear]

AFAIK, the real 1861 Navy has a 7.5" barrel, just like the 1851, but the barrel is "streamlined" and has a ratchet thingie in the loading lever like the 1860 Army. AFAIK the 1851 and 1861 are the same except for the barrel design and grip strap material, and it should be possible to swap barrels.

A Pietta replica is not an accurate repro, hence it looks more like the 1860 Army. It has an 8" barrel. Uberti's 1861 is an accurate replica AFAIK.

I'm not sure about the grip straps, though Cimarron Open Tops are available with either grip style and seem otherwise identical. This would suggest that the grip straps are interchangeable, at least on Uberti replicas. And it seems Pietta likes to use a given frame for as many models as possible, even if they're not historically perfect, so interchangeability is very likely. But try it before you buy it.

 

[Singing Bear]

The 61 has the 60 style barrel, like TFF mentioned, but in 36 cal. The grip is basically from a 51.

The grips can be changed out, but try to stick to the same mfr. Still no guarantee that they'll fit right on. Expect to do some hand fitting of your own. VTI sells the parts or inquire if anyone wants to trade. Some like the size of the 60 grips and find the 51 grips too small.

 

[Stickjockey]

Keep in mind, there are actually three "Navy" C&B revolvers. The 1851, 1861, and the Remington "Navy" revolver.

The 1851 has an octagonal barrel, .36 caliber, and the loading rod is linked with a pin through an oblong hole.

The 1861 looks just like the 1860 Army, with a round barrel, cogged loading rod, .36 caliber.

Remington looks just like the 1858 Army remmington, with the topstrap, octagonal barrel, flanged loading rod, .36 caliber.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Thanks for the help, My friends 1860 just didn't feel right compared to the grips on the 1851. I have never had the occasion to hold an 1861 because they are a little harder to find, but I figured if they had similar grips to the 1851 navy it would feel about the same.

 

[ArmedBear]

Keep in mind, there are actually three "Navy" C&B revolvers. The 1851, 1861, and the Remington "Navy" revolver.

The 1851 has an octagonal barrel, .36 caliber, and the loading rod is linked with a pin through an oblong hole.

The 1861 looks just like the 1860 Army, with a round barrel, cogged loading rod, .36 caliber.

Remington looks just like the 1858 Army remmington, with the topstrap, octagonal barrel, flanged loading rod, .36 caliber.

A few telltale Army-Navy differences.

The 1861's grip is notably shorter than the 1860 Army. The loading lever ends nearer the end of the barrel, since the barrel is 1/2" shorter.

The Remington Navy's barrel is an inch shorter than the Army.

Another note: AFAIK a SAA grip is the same as a Colt Navy grip.

 

[Stickjockey]

Details noted. Thanks, AB!

 

[mec]

I've found lock work interchangebility in the Uberti Army and Navy. A hand assembly fitted to one will work in the other.- at least on mine. The parts are the same in the VTI gun parts lists.

 

[gmatov]

Kinda makes you wonder if there is not 1 company punching pieces for all the mfgs.

One might heat treat the springs better, so Uberti, for example springs last longer, or the cylinders and the rest seem to be better finished. Still all turned out by the same jobber, just the aftermarket dtermines whose product is "better".

90+ % of the parts are interchangeable, which is as it should be, they are Colt clones. They should be close. Most parts on new guns need hand fitting to be the best that they can be. Ruger, aside, they seem to be better fitted to put in a new wire spring and be good to go.

Cheer,

George

 

[mec]

Bates is putting together a 51 navy based on a 1970 Euroarms frame, parts from stretched out brass frames of various manufacture, Armi San Barfo cylinder and barrel and Uberti lockwork. I'ts looking good and has a smooth action already. He now has to address a wide bc gap and get the thing grouping a bit better.

 

[gmatov]

Mec,

A little OT, but can you give some data on bbl/cyl gap? Have a little discussion going elsewhere on too big a gap, how much pressure/velocity loss possible.

My calculations show .020 gap to equal near a 1/4 inch hole in the breech end of a solid barrel piece. That is a TON of escaping gas.

Cheers,

George

I should start a thread on this, I'm sure there are some here who have better math than I.

 

[Father Knows Best]

Mec,

A little OT, but can you give some data on bbl/cyl gap? Have a little discussion going elsewhere on too big a gap, how much pressure/velocity loss possible.

My calculations show .020 gap to equal near a 1/4 inch hole in the breech end of a solid barrel piece. That is a TON of escaping gas.

Cheers,

George

I should start a thread on this, I'm sure there are some here who have better math than I.

I think you're asking how much open area results from a .020 gap. Essentially, you have a cylinder that is .45 in diameter and .02 high. To find the surface area of the sides (ignoring the ends that are the barrel and cylinder), you multiply the circumference of the cylinder by its height. Circumference is pi times diameter. So you solution is 3.14 x .45 x .02 = 0.03 square inches. A hole 1/4" in diameter has a surface area of .05 square inches (area of a circle = pi x r-squared = 3.14 x .125 x .125 = .05). Thus, a .02 gap with a .45 caliber barrel leaves about 60% as much area for escaping gases as would a 1/4 inch diameter hole.

Typical B/C gaps are in the range of .002 (very tight) to .012 (very loose). I like the gaps on my black powder guns to run around .008. In my .44 cartridge black powder guns (.43 barrels), that results in a surface area at the gap of 0.01 square inches, or about 1/3 of what you have at a 0.02 gap on a .45.

 

[mec]

I don't think about them very much. They are in the .006-.008 range on most modern revolvers. I had a Model 29 smith that measured .010 before I sent it back for refitting. It came back with a much tighter gap but the chronographed velocity and accuracy hadn't changed much at all. Gaps that are visibly very large-like the numbers you mention do bleed off quite a bit of velocity.

 

[gmatov]

FNB,

Sorry, should have been more precise. .020 gap X .45 bore is equal to a hole .213 in diameter. Less than 7/32. Some 260 CFM at 300 PSI, and we're at 8000 PSI or so, but combustion time is mebbe 1/20 of a second. I don't have charts that go that high.

Still, they Magnaport rifles and pistols for pressure bleed recoil control, at the muzzle, where the pressure is already at its lowest in the cycle.

Cheers,

George