1860 Army; Getting the most...
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Meralain
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The hardness of the alloy in laser cast bullets increases the force required to drive it down the barrel. That increases the gas pressure in the gun beyond what it is designed to handle. Keep in mind that these firearms are designed around technology from the 1860's, and are built of mostly the same materials. If you increase the pressure in the gun enough, it can cause the frame to bend, or break during firing. If you have ever owned a brass framed pistol, you are aware of the fact that they have a limited life span. As they are shot, the frame slowly stretches and bends, and at some point gets out of spec to the point it is unsafe to fire the pistol without major work. In the 1860 frame, it is steel, but still open at the top of the pistol and not as strong as say a 'p' frame Colt. If you ram enough hard lead through it it will make something move. I have seen a 3 rd gen. Colt that had the cylinder arbor stretched, by trying to ram a bullet home that was slightly oversize, or perhaps started crooked. The same thing happens when you fire a hard round, it exerts forces on the frame, arbor, and general assembly of the gun it was never intended to handle. Anyway, I hope this answers your question! 
I appreciate everyones info so don't think I'm goin' on and on being ungreatful. I'm not
But in my quest for knowledge I decided to go to the man that I bought the pistol from since he is also the one that told me I could shoot hard cast cutters and jackets out od this gun.
So, I went and he actually shot 245 gr hard cast rnfp's out of his dragoon for me.
Some things he said were the following and not only made me think but made total sense:
If you can't shoot hard cast or copper out of one of these things then how is it that all you have to do to shoot 45LC out of it, is buy a different cylinder?
You should remove the cylinder to load the gun. It puts less stress on it.
Using a seating press is the ONLY way to seat a conical or SWC, ect in the cylinder straight.
If a hard cast has too much pressure then how can you shoot a conical out of it? A soft cast conical checks itself in the barrel and allows almost no gasses to escape past the bullet holding in all the pressure. Gasses slip past a hard cast or jacketed and alot of it leaves before the bullet.
You can shoot copper but with the "oh, so wonderful" Italian lapping process it will wear the barrel out quick. You can aleviate a little bit of that by impregnating your own bullets and polishing out the barrel. The kit costs $15, you should do it anyway if you want good performance.
If your worried about pressure I can spin you a chrome moly base pin and it will never come apart.
These are the things that he told me and I'm not 100% sure it is true, but heck, it makes complete sense through and through. As for powder, I think I will use Triple seven. He said P is good for bigger bore, muzzleloading pistols and they handle it better. But Triple seven is better for C&B. I will replace the base pin spring with the piano wire type and install Treso nipples. I might even go as far as replacing the factory base pin with a chrome moly one. I have also decided to buy a Triple P seating press and for now I will shoot the Buffalo Ball-ets I bought. I might try some hard cast swc's some day. But other than that, I'm not sure what else I can, should, or shouldn't do.
But in my quest for knowledge I decided to go to the man that I bought the pistol from since he is also the one that told me I could shoot hard cast cutters and jackets out od this gun.
So, I went and he actually shot 245 gr hard cast rnfp's out of his dragoon for me.
Some things he said were the following and not only made me think but made total sense:
If you can't shoot hard cast or copper out of one of these things then how is it that all you have to do to shoot 45LC out of it, is buy a different cylinder?
You should remove the cylinder to load the gun. It puts less stress on it.
Using a seating press is the ONLY way to seat a conical or SWC, ect in the cylinder straight.
If a hard cast has too much pressure then how can you shoot a conical out of it? A soft cast conical checks itself in the barrel and allows almost no gasses to escape past the bullet holding in all the pressure. Gasses slip past a hard cast or jacketed and alot of it leaves before the bullet.
You can shoot copper but with the "oh, so wonderful" Italian lapping process it will wear the barrel out quick. You can aleviate a little bit of that by impregnating your own bullets and polishing out the barrel. The kit costs $15, you should do it anyway if you want good performance.
If your worried about pressure I can spin you a chrome moly base pin and it will never come apart.
These are the things that he told me and I'm not 100% sure it is true, but heck, it makes complete sense through and through. As for powder, I think I will use Triple seven. He said P is good for bigger bore, muzzleloading pistols and they handle it better. But Triple seven is better for C&B. I will replace the base pin spring with the piano wire type and install Treso nipples. I might even go as far as replacing the factory base pin with a chrome moly one. I have also decided to buy a Triple P seating press and for now I will shoot the Buffalo Ball-ets I bought. I might try some hard cast swc's some day. But other than that, I'm not sure what else I can, should, or shouldn't do.
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I'm aware of the physics of the harder projectile material creating a higher peak pressure in the cylinder chamber. I completely disagree that the peak pressure in the chamber will rise beyond design ultimate or even design limit pressures using black powder. If you have pressure data please provide a citation.
In fact that's not correct. It is true that the steels used in modern replica cylinders are 'softer' than those used in current cartridge firearms, but they are not 'weaker'. They are proof tested to values well beyond design limit pressure. Again, if you have data regarding material properties showing the cylinder stresses could be exceeded please provide a citation.
This is the statement I have the most trouble with. 'Pressure' exists in the cylinder chamber. The failure mode due to excessive pressure in the chamber is to rupture the cylinder wall. Bending or breaking the frame is of absolutely no consequence when a cylinder ruptures; even if it were to fail, and I submit there's never been an instance of that happening with black powder, the real problem is the shrapnel from the cylinder. Now, it is true that repeated exposure to high recoil loads can damage the recoil shield on brass frame guns, but I don't see any mechanism that would cause frame failure due to chamber overpressures. Can you provide any references to actual incidents (note the plural) of that occurrence from black powder?
I'm going to have to agree with mykeal on the materials. I have some Colt thunderers and lightnings and a unfired 58 Remington New Army. That New Army weighs ALOT more than a modern one and just by looking at the steel in the Colts you can tell the metalurgy is way worse than anything of today. The Remington feels more like a lead brick and when you pull on the loading lever it feels like it would bend easily. I have a brand new/in the box Colt 3rd dragoon made in the 50's and it and the Remington weigh about the same. A newer New Army weighs alot less than that. You have to think that no matter where you are in the world, now matter how bad that countries metal is, thier processing technology is still 150 years newer than it was when these pistols originally came out. I would go as far as to say that that old metal feels and looks more along the lines of pewter in comparison to modern steel.
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Old Cannonballs
Member
I haven't looked into it myself, but I've heard from a usually reliable source that you can cast round balls from pewter and shoot them in bp rifles and pistols. There is also a lead-free plumber's solder that is almost the same makeup as pewter but costs less than pewter that you can supposedly use as well. Either way, though, it costs more than lead.
robhof
Member
Good luck with the Triple P loader; I think he's out of business, I've tried contacting him for months and there was a few blogs from others that had already sent money. I ended up getting one from Powder Inc., close and works fine, I had to make an arbor for my 31 Colt clone though.
Far as I know...
Cap and Ball Revolver, or, very old Metallic Cartridge Revolvers...Pure Lead was the material suited for their Bullets, whatever shape those Bullets may be.
Pure Lead will slump or upset enough when accelerated in BP Revolver loadings, sealing off Gas leaks around it, and, widening itself into the Rifling.
Copper Jacket Bullets will not slump or upset enough at the rate of acceleration which is probable in a BP era Revolver, and, in a Cap and Ball Revolver, will have to to fit into the front of the Cylinder to load, making for a poor Barrel-Rifling Fit once they do not upset, or, if in a Metallic Cartridge BP era revolver, if they are the right size at all, having to be squeezed down by the Forcing Cone, then, and being a lot harder to squeeze, will delay the Bullet's acceleration slightly, while pressure, or, more importantly maybe, duration of rising pressure, continues behind it, stressing the Cylinder and Forcing cone area.
Legends abound of people melting down Pewter or Britannia Metal in a pinch, for casting Balls for Rifles...this does not mean it worked well, or did not suffer accuracy issues, even if patched, as they would have been for use in Muzzle Loading Long Arms.
The Metal would be too hard to slump or upset very well to press itself and or it's surrounding Patch into the Rifling...and would be a lot worse in a Revolver or Single Shot Muzzle Loading Pistol.
In a Cap and Ball Revolver, the results would be terrible, if the Balls even stayed in the Cylinders on their own at all.
Of course, you can shoot Gravel, old Screws, Birdshot, Nuts and Bolts, Carpet Tacks, small chunks of broken Glass, stacks of Washers, or anything else, over a thich enough wad and top-wad for that matter.
Plain, pure, soft Lead...is what these Arms were meant to use...whatever the Bullet shape, and, is what will work best in them.
Cap and Ball Revolver, or, very old Metallic Cartridge Revolvers...Pure Lead was the material suited for their Bullets, whatever shape those Bullets may be.
Pure Lead will slump or upset enough when accelerated in BP Revolver loadings, sealing off Gas leaks around it, and, widening itself into the Rifling.
Copper Jacket Bullets will not slump or upset enough at the rate of acceleration which is probable in a BP era Revolver, and, in a Cap and Ball Revolver, will have to to fit into the front of the Cylinder to load, making for a poor Barrel-Rifling Fit once they do not upset, or, if in a Metallic Cartridge BP era revolver, if they are the right size at all, having to be squeezed down by the Forcing Cone, then, and being a lot harder to squeeze, will delay the Bullet's acceleration slightly, while pressure, or, more importantly maybe, duration of rising pressure, continues behind it, stressing the Cylinder and Forcing cone area.
Legends abound of people melting down Pewter or Britannia Metal in a pinch, for casting Balls for Rifles...this does not mean it worked well, or did not suffer accuracy issues, even if patched, as they would have been for use in Muzzle Loading Long Arms.
The Metal would be too hard to slump or upset very well to press itself and or it's surrounding Patch into the Rifling...and would be a lot worse in a Revolver or Single Shot Muzzle Loading Pistol.
In a Cap and Ball Revolver, the results would be terrible, if the Balls even stayed in the Cylinders on their own at all.
Of course, you can shoot Gravel, old Screws, Birdshot, Nuts and Bolts, Carpet Tacks, small chunks of broken Glass, stacks of Washers, or anything else, over a thich enough wad and top-wad for that matter.
Plain, pure, soft Lead...is what these Arms were meant to use...whatever the Bullet shape, and, is what will work best in them.
Ok, well I found a gunsmith here where I live. He is a curraitor for a handfull of museums and he told me basically the same thing as the guy I bought the gun off of.
He told me that I can shoot hard cast as long as it is seated correctly and that round balls are never going to give me the performance I could get with a semi wad cutter. As for loading it correctly, in his words... "You wouldn't load a bullet in a case crooked would you? Treat your gun the same as you would your cartridge pistol". He told me not to compare these repros to any old firearm of the era. That they are not even close to the same as in terms of strength. He said it would be the same as comparing a Uberti SAA to an old Colt, further talking about how you would never see an old Colt be able to shoot 357 Mag or any MODERN loaded smokeless rounds without issues.
He said that I could shoot copper but what a waste of money. Jacketed bullets are too expensive and hard cast would do fine. That goes back to the retorricle question of, "If you cant shoot jacketed bullets out of a C&B, then why is it to shoot jacketed bullets, all you have to do is buy a conversion cylinder"?
Makes sense to me! Not that I'm going to shoot jacketed bullets. It also makes sense that it is a waste.
He told me that I can shoot hard cast as long as it is seated correctly and that round balls are never going to give me the performance I could get with a semi wad cutter. As for loading it correctly, in his words... "You wouldn't load a bullet in a case crooked would you? Treat your gun the same as you would your cartridge pistol". He told me not to compare these repros to any old firearm of the era. That they are not even close to the same as in terms of strength. He said it would be the same as comparing a Uberti SAA to an old Colt, further talking about how you would never see an old Colt be able to shoot 357 Mag or any MODERN loaded smokeless rounds without issues.
He said that I could shoot copper but what a waste of money. Jacketed bullets are too expensive and hard cast would do fine. That goes back to the retorricle question of, "If you cant shoot jacketed bullets out of a C&B, then why is it to shoot jacketed bullets, all you have to do is buy a conversion cylinder"?
Makes sense to me! Not that I'm going to shoot jacketed bullets. It also makes sense that it is a waste.
Matt-J2
Member
The shooting isn't the problem. Not sure it ever was. It's the loading of them that's a bit tricky. Me, I'm not going to try and shove a jacketed bullet down a chamber when it needs to be so tight as to make a seal. Wouldn't even want to try it with a hard cast bullet, either, while we're at it. Just takes more effort than I reckon it's worth, and I'm not even certain you'll get all that much more performance out of it. Cast bullets do actually need to fit the bore, not be smaller than. Otherwise you get leading of the barrel, and a bullet that's too hard for the speed/pressures involved can lead to quite a bit of leading.(leading not guaranteed...or desired) Just some things to think on.
Fingers McGee
Member
cutnhrse,
Shooting hard cast bullets, whatever the shape, is not the problem. You can shoot hard cast bullets out of a conversion cylinder all day long with good accuracy and no ill effects. Loading them in the chamber of a percussion cylinder and sealing them to prevent gas leakage is the problem. Soft lead bullets will swage to a tight fit in the chamber where a hard cast will not.
As far as round ball vs conical bullets goes, back in '02 (long time ago), soldiers using the '60 Armies, and '51 Navies found they got better accuracy with round balls vs conicals. Nowdays, there are soft lead conicals with beveled bases and large lube grooves that reportedly work very well (I've not had the opportunity to try any - yet); but, they were specifically engineered for use in C&B revolvers, and are cast from soft lead.
When you get around to trying your hard cast semiwadcutters, let us know how it turns out. I'm fairly certain you'll change your tune.
Shooting hard cast bullets, whatever the shape, is not the problem. You can shoot hard cast bullets out of a conversion cylinder all day long with good accuracy and no ill effects. Loading them in the chamber of a percussion cylinder and sealing them to prevent gas leakage is the problem. Soft lead bullets will swage to a tight fit in the chamber where a hard cast will not.
As far as round ball vs conical bullets goes, back in '02 (long time ago), soldiers using the '60 Armies, and '51 Navies found they got better accuracy with round balls vs conicals. Nowdays, there are soft lead conicals with beveled bases and large lube grooves that reportedly work very well (I've not had the opportunity to try any - yet); but, they were specifically engineered for use in C&B revolvers, and are cast from soft lead.
When you get around to trying your hard cast semiwadcutters, let us know how it turns out. I'm fairly certain you'll change your tune.
Fingers,
I get what you're sayin' about loading them straight. Thats where the seating press comes in. I'm not going to try it anytime soon. When you talked about beveled edged conicals, I actually bought 150 Buffalo Ball-ets. So, I'll be using those for quite some time. If I like them, I may never shoot anything but that. They seem to be semi hard cast though. Thought they were soft cast, but they don't seem to be. Good for me because they won't splatter on a hogs gristle plate!
I get what you're sayin' about loading them straight. Thats where the seating press comes in. I'm not going to try it anytime soon. When you talked about beveled edged conicals, I actually bought 150 Buffalo Ball-ets. So, I'll be using those for quite some time. If I like them, I may never shoot anything but that. They seem to be semi hard cast though. Thought they were soft cast, but they don't seem to be. Good for me because they won't splatter on a hogs gristle plate!
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