1911 & CZ75: Dropping the Hammer...Safely

[armoredman]

I carried a Witness CZ clone, and safely decocked it for 13+ years one handed, after always making sure it was pointed in a safe direction. I now have a CZ75 PO1 with decocker, but the truth of the matter is that it is safe to decock the CZ75 as long as you learn it slowly, and practice on an unloaded pistol.
You can get the CZ75D with the decocker, but most non CZ people don't realize it actually decocks to the notch, not all the way down. CZ stataes it is safe, and I tend to believe them, but long habit has me decock all the way, and some purists will freak at the thought of a hammer on the notch.

I feel safer with decocking a CZ than carrying a Glock, which is cocked and unlocked....

 

[shep854]

I lower the hammer on a loaded chamber all the time. Much of my CZ75 practice is to master the DA-to-SA trigger pull, which requires manually lowering the hammer. My procedure is to lower the hammer with my thumb on top of the hammer, rather than pinching the hammer between thumb and finger. For me, the risk of the hammer slipping is greater when trying to hold on to the smooth sides of the hammer.

The only ND I've had was (many) years ago when I got the procedure backwards with my Commander.

The DA capability of the CZ75 can provide a safety asset by requiring a longer, more fumble-resistant DA pull. In some situations, this can be important.

 

[beardking]

Man o' man, I must be the absolute most dangerous person on this board then. I decock my CZ 75b all the time. I keep it in my nightstand ready for DA action in case some ne'er-do-well decides he needs to enter my home in an uninvited manner. I used to do the same thing with my 1911 knockoff Llama before I sold it. I do the decocking dance just as described in the link listed above and so far everyone in my house is still alive and well and don't have any extra holes in them. To each there own, but I'll keep mine ready in this condition until I see good reason not to.

 

[wally]

With the CZ system, you have to lower the hammer almost all the way down, past the interceptor notch.

Not according to the manual that came with my CZ75B.

The "half-cock" notch is where the hammer sits on the Decocker-Only DA/SA models.

Its really easy to safely decock a CZ. Remember that the firing pin block is your friend here!


(1) Take a normal grip on the gun, finger off the trigger, while pointing the muzzle in a safe direction.

(2) Lay your off hand thumb on the hammer striking surface between it and the slide and press down a bit to take up most of the spring force so the hammer doesn't slam your thumb in the step below.

(3) Pull the trigger, the hammer will now press against your off hand thumb.

(4) RELEASE THE TRIGGER and remove your finger from the trigger gaurd, this will re-activate the firing pin block making step five perfectly safe.

(5) Slowly pull your thumb out from between the hammer and the frame until the hammer is in the "half-cock" notch. This is where it should be when decocked.

Do it on an unloaded gun a few times first to get the hang of it. Its easier to do than describe. Can be done one handed with a little practice using the gun hand thumb between the hammer and slide.

--wally.

 

[OF]

Man o' man, I must be the absolute most dangerous person on this board then.

You're working on it. Frankly, I love the 'well I've done it for years and never had a problem' defense.

I ran into a guy at the range a while back when we were getting our IDPA club up and running. I was doing some rapid-fire (Bill) drills by my lonesome and these two old crusties came over to see what the "full-auto" was. They wasted no time telling me that they "didn't go for all that 'quick draw' nonsense" and then with this condesccending 'so there' look on his face proceeded to explain that in all his years of carrying a gun, he had never been in a situation where he had to draw quickly.

Well blow me over.

I guess we'll just rewrite all the trainning manuals based on your personal anecdotal experience? What's your phone number, I'll make sure the local LEO trainers have it so they can consult you on what is and is not appropriate to train for. Instead of practiving weapon retention, we can just call you up and see if you've ever been in a situation where you had to fight for your gun...no? Well thank God we don't have to waste the time and money training for that crap anymore.

I find it more than a little embarrassing that we have people on here advocating pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber. It is ridiculous. I could care less if you do it yourself, but it bugs me that you would try to argue to others (who may be inexperienced) that this is a good idea. It's not. When the gun is loaded, keep your finger off the trigger. Period.

The only ND I've had was (many) years ago when I got the procedure backwards with my Commander.

Oh, well I guess that doesn't count then.

Wally, any procedure that takes 5 steps, all-caps, 'practice' and is as dangerous as what you just outlined should go in the 'no thanks' file as fast as you can say 'oops!'

- Gabe

 

[roo_ster]

Appreciate the Input

Thank you all for your input, both as to spelling out procedures to use the CZ75 in DA/SA mode and..ahem...input dissuading such use.

I suspect when the time comes for me to slap my cash on the table for one, I'll go with the SA-only CZ75SA. This will provide LESS functionality (for more $$$), but the manual of arms will be the same one my wife knows & loves for HER 1911. Also, folks who have owned both the CZ75B and the CZ75SA have been uniform in stating the CZ75SA's trigger is superior, which is the primary deciding factor.

The procedure used to get it into DA mode is remarkably similar to that used by DA-revolver shooters use to get their revolver from SA to DA mode...only the CZ (with inertial firing pin) seems somewhat less prone to accidental discharge.

 

[Ash]

Good grief, does nobody shoot revolvers? There is only one way to decock a revolver, and that is the same way to decock a CZ-75. Or do people treat the revolver like some mystical item that cannot be placed back into the holster unless blood is drawn? People have decocked revolvers since revolers could be decocked. There was never a fear of doing so, just careful attention to what was being done.

I do it all the time and do it safely. I have never had an AD or ND in my life, except for one time using a CZ-52 and a faulty decocker. If I had lowered it like I normally did, it wouldn't have happened then. (Note, pistol was down range at the time, pointed slightly down, and the bullet struck the dirt half-way down.)

The answer is yes, you can do it safely. You merely lower the hammer while pulling the trigger. Once the hammer begins to fall, you can release the trigger and if the hammer slips, it will stop on the half-cock notch. Don't be careless while doing it, and don't do it one-handed like in the movies, of course, but with care, there is no real danger.

Ash

 

[beardking]

Well said Ash, well said. I had never really thought about the revolver aspect as I do not currently own one, but thinking back to the old days (you know WAY back in the 80's) when I was a wee tyke, my mom had a S&W .357 mag that was her duty gun at the prison she worked at (until they said they could no longer carry guns), and I can think of many times that she would decock it doing the same procedure as above when she was teaching me how to use it (yes, my mom taught me how to shoot, my parents were divorced when I was 5).

 

[OF]

Having to decock a revolver on the rare circumstance that you have cocked the hammer manually and need to decock it is not the same as including pulling the trigger on a live chamber into your everyday administrative procedures.

The question is not whether or not it can be done, but whether or not it is a good idea. Especially as a daily event.

- Gabe

 

[cslinger]

On a revolver, you can also very easily pop the cylinder open, remove the offending rounds, drop the hammer on an empty cylinder, replace rounds and move on.

I don't do this at the range but would If I was in a place where I did not want to shoot.

I too do not like guns that are designed to be decocked by pulling the trigger. I can do it, but I think it is inherently unsafe. Give me a nice traditional DA/SA with a decocker anyday, thank you very much.

I like CZ's but I would either own a BD version or carry cocked and locked.

Chris

 

[Ash]

No revolver I own can be opened with the hammer cocked. Over on CZ Forum, you never hear about troubles with either method, even though there are those who like decockers and those who don't. If you load your pistol and lower the hammer, why would you see to unload it daily?

Ash

 

[Ash]

By the way, the CZ-75 and clone are carried by the second largest NATO army (Turkey) and are very popular in Israel and the far east. It is a matter of opinion, of course. Those who like the SA/DA with a decocker have a wide variety of firearms available to suit their needs. My point is that only in the last few years has it become vogue to hate manual safties and fear decocking pistols manually. It isn't unsafe if done properly. As I have said, the only discharge I have ever had was using a decocker. I've decocked thousands of times, either with round in the chamber or not. I have never had a hammer slip. Even so, the CZ-75 has a firing pin block that, if you remove your finger from the trigger just as the hammer lowers, will prevent a firing. The only way for the pistol to fire is to pull the trigger, and keep it pulled until the hammer strikes the firing pin.

Of course, to each his own. I personally would never own a Glock for the lack of manual safties.

Ash

 

[cslinger]

Ash,

Oops. You are absolutely right about the revo. Like I said I don't do this because I am almost always at the range. My brain was just thinking of how to do this and then I caught my mistake after the fact.

Chris

 

[cslinger]

Ash,

Oops. You are absolutely right about the revo. Like I said I don't do this because I am almost always at the range. My brain was just thinking of how to do this and then I caught my mistake after the fact.

Chris

 

[armoredman]

Actually, the CZ is in use by 66 countries worldwide. Amazing, GRD, that such and "unsafe " gun is safely used/decocked for so many years/times/places. That's the beauty of all the differant styles/types/calibers/etc of pistols in the world - we are always guarenteed of finding the one that fits.

 

[CZ52GUY]

This is getting silly...

...this is about safe handling practices.

The CZ-75 series (including the B series which is designed with a "manual decocking feature") is not an "inherently unsafe design". I don't think GRD is saying that.

I think what he is saying, is given the alternative of cocked and locked or manual decock, why manually decock? I happen to be a CZ-75B owner that agrees with GRD.

The risk/reward proposition doesn't add up for me.

I can safely clear the weapon without manually decocking.

I feel safer carrying cocked and locked.

I can deploy and hit an 8" circle in <1.5 seconds from 7 yards while disengaging the manual safety during draw.

The single action trigger is better. The manual safety operation is easily learned (can thousands of 1911 owners be wrong ).

The revolvers are a different animal. They don't offer the same choice that the CZ-75B offers. Given the choice, I see ZERO INCENTIVE to manually decock a loaded CZ-75B.

The fundamental question is not, can you safely do it. Obviously, it can be done.

The fundamental question is, should you do it, given the alternatives.

I wouldn't advise any CZ-75B owner to manual decock their weapon from condition 0 or 1. I can't justify the need.

Does that mean the revolver is an inherently unsafe design? No. It's a different piece.

I measure the risk/reward proposition for my safety AND FOR OTHERS to whom my actions may effect.

GRD's comments are well worth considering for those who own or are contemplating a CZ-75B or similar design.

The CZ-75B offers a choice. For the reasons mentioned above, I choose the safest most effective operational approach that this model provides.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[goober]

Think about getting a CZ P-01. Beautiful pistol for the price, one of my favorite weapons, and it comes with a decocker .

Greg

 

[roo_ster]

goober:

I have a confession to make...

I absolutely despise decockers & the pistols that sport them. I don't think poorly of those who choose to use them, however. This is America. If you wanna buy one, go right ahead. I just choose not to buy one of the cursed things.

About the only decocker-wearing pistol I'd even consider is the HK USP, with the ability to do C&L, traditional DA/SA, and decocker DA/SA. I just would never use the decocker function.

Give me the ability to carry C&L all the time or give me DA all the time. The ability to go SA all the time is one reason I consider the CZ75 an acceptible alternative.

This is a case of personal preference. I'm not trying to convince others wedded to decocking pistols they own junk or are crazy.

 

[Marshall]

I decock manually on my SA Hi-Powers from time to time. But I'm an old revolver guy and it comes naturally to do so safely. But for a newby or, if you don't feel 100% safe doing so, don't do it!

 

[Majic]

With all these shooters who say you should never manually decock a handgun have never had any dealings with a single action revolver.
What ever happened to the old saying:
Never fully trust a mechanical device for it may break at the most innappropiate time.
Spurs are put on hammers for control of them when cocking and decocking. Decockers were developed for those who for whatever reason couldn't safely decock their handguns.
If you don't or dislike to manually decock a handgun then that is fine, but don't try to say how dangerous or that it just shouldn't be done when it has been a part of firearm shooting since the first firearm ever wore a hammer.

After you load the magazine and then chamber a round in a lever gun what do you do if you are not ready to shoot it? Manually decock it.
Cock the percussion blackpowder rifle or rabbit ear shotgun and then decide to not take the shot. What do you do then?
Do you see what some say is so dangerous that you should never perform the act have been performed for a couple of hundred years.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Majic

Respectfully...the CZ-75B offers you a choice.

The SA Revolver does not offer a choice. Given a CHOICE, SHOULD you operate a cocked and locked capable autoloader like a SA Revolver?

I submit you are better off CHOOSING the safer alternative.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'

 

[Majic]

CZ52,
The subject of the thread is about decocking safely, not how you may want to operate the handgun. I was stating that firearms have been safely decocked manually for several hundered years.
Now whether you personally choose to operate the CZ-75 as a DA/SA or a C&L SA is up to you, but because choices were provided by the factory how can you determine what is safer for me?

 

[CZSteve]

Wally nailed the procedure perfectly.

I keep mine in condition 1 when under my control, ie. on my body.
Condition 2 when in the safe.
Feel very comfortable doing this, just have to always remember to NOT get TOO comfortable.

I also de-cock to the half-notch.
Accomplishes two things:
Lighter/shorter trigger pull w/ easier reach if firing DA and, as Wally mentioned, de-cocking has much less of a 'pucker-factor' as you can completely release the trigger and put the firing pin stop into play while dropping the hammer.

We've discussed carrying half-cock over at the czforum with the concensus that it is perfectly acceptable. The de-cocker models drop to half-cock by design and they have less material than the standard 75 for the notch in order to make room for the de-cocker assembly.

 

[CZ52GUY]

Majic

Hey Guy,

Given a CHOICE, is lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber really a subjective question?

I'll leave it to the readers of the thread to decide.

The thread took a direction on the relative merits of manually decocking a CZ-75. Several have offered opinions, I have offered mine.

I'm comfortable with the position I've taken given my experience with the specific product in question.

What you do is obviously up to you.

A compelling case to CHOOSE to manually decock a CZ-75B when IMHO safer options/operational practices are available with this platform?

I haven't heard it...doubt I will.

Stay safe,

CZ52'

 

[wally]

Since my CZ does cocked and locked, I see no reason to decock it when its loaded.

The proceedure I've described is a fail safe as any other mechanical interference to prevent the hammer from striking the firing pin. Ever hear of a Walther P38 firing during decock when the firing pin block breaks?

The emphasis on removing your finger from the trigger before removing the thumb's interference is to re-engage the firing pin block as a secondary safety.

--wally.