bigfatdave
Member
maybe a HOLSTER would be safer?
1911 Home Defense
- Thread starter inthelineofire
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U.S.SFC_RET
Member
I will always keep a 1911 with the hammer down and nothing in the tube while in the home.
The hammer down tells me it's an empty chamber.
The hammer down tells me it's an empty chamber.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
The last word in loaded chamber indicators.
I like it...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
There can be issues associated with carrying any loaded gun, regardless of design and mode of carry. There are potential issues with handling loaded guns, and every time we pick one up, we increase the odds that something will go awry. We minimize those odds by observing the four cardinal rules...and then I'll add a 5th one that I adhere to religiously.
1. It's loaded.
2. Keep it pointed in a direction that won't result in damage, injury, or loss of life.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're prepared to fire, and are prepared to accept the responsibility for firing it.
4. Be aware of what is behind your target.
5. Never fire at anything that you can't identify as a legitimate target. Don't fire at a sound or a shadow or a suspicion. If you don't know what it is...hold your fire until you do.
mothermopar said:
ND / AD's happen when you handle loaded weapons. Period. That is why you handle them as little as possible. Gun safety means keeping your hands off it until it is needed.
mothermopar said:
Kind of odd that you say, "what if's are an excuse" but used a "what if".
Take the 1911 out of the equation. Take handguns out. Do you keep a condition 1 shotgun or rifle at the ready for home defense? I have never met someone who did. Everyone I know that keeps a defensive long gun handy keeps it in condition 3. Why is it when it is a rifle / shotgun everyone sees the obvious?
This has turned into a much bigger deal than it really is. You can safely carry and keep a 1911 in Condition 1, regardless of whether it was "originally" designed that way. It is also the quickest way to get a 1911 into action if needed. It is not a hard concept at all. It's so easy, even a caveman can do it.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Uh...(raises hand)...I've kept a few double shotguns for HD in Condition One over the years before modern exposed hammer guns were widely available.
Agree...but handling loaded guns is part of the equation unless you load it and never, ever touch it again...which means that either it stays in a drawer until the day you die, or you can twist yourself into some interesting contortions when you change clothes or undress for bed. (Unless you don't do either, which is a completely different conversation.)
I think part of the problem lies in a particular attitude that too many have these days. I hear people refer to their guns in cutesy terms like: "My new toy" or "My little friend." It's not a toy and it sure as hell ain't your friend. It's as dangerous as a rattlesnake, and that should be foremost in your mind at all times. Handle it accordingly.
1911Tuner said:
hahahaha.... Well, ask a question, get an answer.
But the hammer was down? Just curious. I have been thinking about picking up a 20gauge double and keeping it "broken" with chambers loaded. More of an excuse to by a coach gun than anything...
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
When concealed hammer doubles are opened, they cock the hammers automatically.
In order to store one with the hammers down without using snap caps or dry-firing...which is bad for'em...you have to remove the barrel and forestock...pull the triggers with something on the breechface to cushion the pins...and reassemble the gun.
I used a small pine block for the task.
You can't load the chambers before reassembling because the firing pins don't rebound into the frame. When you close the action, the shells will fire...and possibly before the action is locked. The exposed hammer coach gun is an ideal way to store a loaded double. I like'em.
As for the 1911 and BHP...Cocked ad locked offers instant readiness with a flick of the thumb. When I carry one these days, that's the way I carry. I clear the weapon before entering the house...not because it's not safe, but because the extractor is basically a spring and springs under constant compression will take a set eventually.
I conducted an experiment once to test my theory by loading a 1911 with a well-tuned extractor and leaving it for a year. When the year was up, it was apparent that the extractor had lost a little of its tension. Not enough to cause problems, but enough to cause weak ejection. So, I don't leave'em loaded for extended periods.
In order to store one with the hammers down without using snap caps or dry-firing...which is bad for'em...you have to remove the barrel and forestock...pull the triggers with something on the breechface to cushion the pins...and reassemble the gun.
I used a small pine block for the task.
You can't load the chambers before reassembling because the firing pins don't rebound into the frame. When you close the action, the shells will fire...and possibly before the action is locked. The exposed hammer coach gun is an ideal way to store a loaded double. I like'em.
As for the 1911 and BHP...Cocked ad locked offers instant readiness with a flick of the thumb. When I carry one these days, that's the way I carry. I clear the weapon before entering the house...not because it's not safe, but because the extractor is basically a spring and springs under constant compression will take a set eventually.
I conducted an experiment once to test my theory by loading a 1911 with a well-tuned extractor and leaving it for a year. When the year was up, it was apparent that the extractor had lost a little of its tension. Not enough to cause problems, but enough to cause weak ejection. So, I don't leave'em loaded for extended periods.
inthelineofire
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Thanks to everyone for their contribution to this thread. It's interesting to see different perspectives, and this thread reinforced my belief that Condition 1 all the time is completely safe for me.
MBT2001- in reference to your post #56, I handle my weapons frequently. I practice with them frequently and will even sit at my desk and practice "dry-fire" techniques with them. Yes, that involves unloading them and loading them. I have never had a ND or AD. I respectfully disagree with your statement that we are to "handle them as little as possible, or only when we need them." I personally believe if one remembers and practices the cardinal NRA rules of basic gun safety there will be no problem.
MBT2001- in reference to your post #56, I handle my weapons frequently. I practice with them frequently and will even sit at my desk and practice "dry-fire" techniques with them. Yes, that involves unloading them and loading them. I have never had a ND or AD. I respectfully disagree with your statement that we are to "handle them as little as possible, or only when we need them." I personally believe if one remembers and practices the cardinal NRA rules of basic gun safety there will be no problem.
I keep my Officer's Model in the living area in condition 1, but my fullsize Kimber and the Mossberg in the bedroom are both kept with full magazines and empty chambers. I'm an active dreamer and I've been known to jump out of bed after dreaming there was a snake or spider under the covers. Makes me feel better to know that if (god forbid) I ever reached for a gun coming out of a nightmare chambering a round would hopefully clear the cobwebs.
And if anyone is going to post that I shouldn't keep a loaded gun because I do occasionally carry my dreams out of the bed, don't bother. Me and mine will live with the risk since it's preferable to the alternative.
And if anyone is going to post that I shouldn't keep a loaded gun because I do occasionally carry my dreams out of the bed, don't bother. Me and mine will live with the risk since it's preferable to the alternative.
bigfatdave
Member
Sure, without a holster.
If you're just tossing your loaded chambered guns about loose, as I said, please keep the chamber empty and have a snap-cap replacing the first round regardless of the type of firearm, it is TWICE as safe as an empty chamber to have a snap-cap in the mag or as the next round in the cylinder, compared to an empty chamber.
No one suggested that. Why take up space saying something that no one suggested?
Your insistence on using a holster is what I am talking about. If you are suggesting a holster as a storage option, even if the gun isn't worn as a CCW piece, because it protects the trigger, then you are AGREEING, that condition 1 needs some best practice options.
I agree, I just disagree on what is BEST.
BTW - Either your previous post about snap caps was sarcastic, or it was a suggestion.
inthelineoffire said:
Handling a gun necessitates observing the 4 rules. Yes, I agree. If you don't handle it, you don't have to observe the rules... Of course, that is obvious.
But, just to be clear, you are talking about your CCW piece right? I didn't get the idea that the OP was talking about a carry piece but a nightstand piece. Most of the comments in the thread are for what people do with their CCW piece, which is a different ball of wax.
A gun in a nightstand isn't the same animal as a gun in a holster at all, IMO. It isn't checked often, it isn't attended to. It just sits... waiting... I think that means something. Maybe you don't.
inthelineofire
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No, no... I am talking about the gun that sits in the closed drawer of a nightstand that no one else has access to.
I am the OP.
I am the OP.
bigfatdave
Member
I'm dead serious, if an empty chamber can replace safe gun handling, then a snap-cap or dummy round as first round in the mag is twice as safe.
You will find that many people take their carry gun off of the belt and use it as a nightstand gun. After all, it should be the gun you train most with and are best able to operate effectively and safely, right?
Well I don't have one of those, unless you count the gun I chose not to carry today that sits in the carry gun spot in the bedroom loaded, holstered and ready to go.
Polar Express
Member
I carry a 1911 when laws and my employment permit. I carry it in condition 1.
When I'm in the bed, that gun is on my nightstand, in condition 1.
Next to the bed, is a Mossberg 12ga pump, also in condition 1. I don't carry that with me. (just to be very clear) It stays there.
I do not have a dedicated 'nightstand gun', that sits in/on the nightstand and stays there.
Even though I much prefer auto loading handguns, if I was to decide to have a 'nightstand gun', I would actually likely select a double action revolver, with the hammer in the down position. My reasoning for this would be that a gun used for that purpose alone would not be unloaded, examined, cleaned, reloaded, frequently, and I'm leery of springs taking a set. I realize metallurgy has come a long way in the past few years, and if I can find a spring mfgr. that knows their springs won't take a compressed set, I'll listen.
To be clear, we do not have kids of our own in the house, but we do have frequent in-law visitors that are in the home. We don't open our Master bedroom to our guests, and if we have todler guests (kids that won't understand that room is of limits), the shotgun is removed.
It has been interesting to read others' ideas and methods. Thanks for posting.
PE
When I'm in the bed, that gun is on my nightstand, in condition 1.
Next to the bed, is a Mossberg 12ga pump, also in condition 1. I don't carry that with me. (just to be very clear) It stays there.
I do not have a dedicated 'nightstand gun', that sits in/on the nightstand and stays there.
Even though I much prefer auto loading handguns, if I was to decide to have a 'nightstand gun', I would actually likely select a double action revolver, with the hammer in the down position. My reasoning for this would be that a gun used for that purpose alone would not be unloaded, examined, cleaned, reloaded, frequently, and I'm leery of springs taking a set. I realize metallurgy has come a long way in the past few years, and if I can find a spring mfgr. that knows their springs won't take a compressed set, I'll listen.
To be clear, we do not have kids of our own in the house, but we do have frequent in-law visitors that are in the home. We don't open our Master bedroom to our guests, and if we have todler guests (kids that won't understand that room is of limits), the shotgun is removed.
It has been interesting to read others' ideas and methods. Thanks for posting.
PE
Night stand gun is shot once a week and handled every few days so condition 1 is not an option for me. To much to load and unload. Condition 3 is better for me only due to frequent handling.
I don't want to rotate ammo because of fequent loading and unloading due to possible bullet setback.
I don't want to rotate ammo because of fequent loading and unloading due to possible bullet setback.
bigfatdave
Member
I think one or two rounds going to the weekly range trip would be acceptable. How many times are you screwing around with a nightstand gun? And why not just leave it in a holster?
Am I missing some big thing here? I really don't have trouble cleaning a firearm, loading it, holstering it, and leaving it in the holster until routine CC gun cleaning or a range trip ... that can be a couple weeks, perhaps a month before I start to wonder how many dust bunnies are in there.
Am I missing some big thing here? I really don't have trouble cleaning a firearm, loading it, holstering it, and leaving it in the holster until routine CC gun cleaning or a range trip ... that can be a couple weeks, perhaps a month before I start to wonder how many dust bunnies are in there.
Hey BFDave, my SA Loaded 45 ACP is my range and home night stand gun. It is the most reliable and gets lots of use. I simply don't want to cycle ammo into the chamber a couple of times a week. Simply reloading ammo over and over again can and will cause bullet setback. That is not a good thing. I use Winchester Ranger bullets for home defense and reloads for range work. This is why, for me, Condition #3 is used.
Hey I do have a 44 mag and 10MM as well but that's another story.
Hey I do have a 44 mag and 10MM as well but that's another story.
Garnett Stancil
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Cocked & locked under my empty pillow. No children at home anymore.
jojo200517
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If I had a 1911 I'd keep it chambered and ready just like my other weapons or cocked and locked as you guys call it.
I'll raise my hand too. If it ain't loaded it's just a stick to me. If it ain't loaded it ain't handy. The only time my long guns are unloaded is when they are being cleaned, or being placed in vehicle for transport (per state law), or when I stop shooting to reload, and when the range calls a cease fire. My pistols are unloaded for cleaning, training a new shooter, reloading, or when showing to someone.
The only weapon I leave loaded but not chambered is my mosin nagant because the darn safety is to hard to get on and off so I just leave the bolt open. (yeah i'd even say its like a stick like this but its a darn big stick with a long pokey bayonet) The only empty long gun is my grandfathers 16 gauge single shot. It is not in what i'd consider shooting condition.
I'll raise my hand too. If it ain't loaded it's just a stick to me. If it ain't loaded it ain't handy. The only time my long guns are unloaded is when they are being cleaned, or being placed in vehicle for transport (per state law), or when I stop shooting to reload, and when the range calls a cease fire. My pistols are unloaded for cleaning, training a new shooter, reloading, or when showing to someone.
The only weapon I leave loaded but not chambered is my mosin nagant because the darn safety is to hard to get on and off so I just leave the bolt open. (yeah i'd even say its like a stick like this but its a darn big stick with a long pokey bayonet) The only empty long gun is my grandfathers 16 gauge single shot. It is not in what i'd consider shooting condition.
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