1911 magazines revisited aka frankenmags

[moorerwc]

Maybe I should've called this "1911tuner Testing" as I had previously used his advice on springing my 1911's--I had followed the trend on other boards of lighter hammer springs and heavier recoil springs to try to get a smoother cycling pistol, but after going back to stock like 1911tuner suggested the pistols feel much better.

So I tried to listen to what he said about 1911 magazines, but had to experiment. I had heard too many accounts of popped welds to go straight to the Metalform mags. But as the result of my _assumption_ that 7rd. Wilson 47's were the epitome of reliability and after much ammo money and several bad tie ups in my Kimber (picture mag followers jumping slightly over the slide lock at lockback)--I have a couple of Wilson mag bodies to experiment with. So I rebuilt the mags with metalform SS flat followers and Wolff 11# springs. While I had the the followers ordered, I went ahead and got some CMC power mags to try out with them.

Long story short, in my limited testing of the modded power mags, they ran like grease through a goose, but the rebuilt Wilson's gave fits. The Wilson's failed to lock back and sometimes when they did lock back they left the last round sitting on top of the follower. After the failures I noticed that in this combination the follower actually sits slightly above the feedlips when the mag is empty.

So the CMC Power mag/Metalform flat follower is the setup I'm gonna be testing for a while. I'd heard good things about the bodies and springs in these but when I dry tested them with their stock followers they didn't want to work well in either my Kimber or Colt and the lack of stability of the folllowers is not confidence building. The upside to this is that this combo is one of the cheapest of the franken mag recipe's that I've heard of.

I was tempted to try Metalform's round followers in my experiments but others with bigger budgets and test samples than me have recently reported severe problems develop using these in any mag body but those from Metalform.

I'd be happy to hear results, if anyone has tried similar tests.

-Chad

 

[1911Tuner]

Winning Combo.

Howdy Chad,

Had a few minutes and stopped by for some ham and eggs before I take the dogs
over to give'em a run at live cattle.

The Metalform followers probably didn't work with the Wilson tubes because of the specs. Wilsons are built for the Wilson-Rogers followers. You can swap the W-R followers into Colt/Metalform magazines...but usually not vice-versa.

McCormick Shooting Stars are made for Chip by Metalform...and though nobody
up there will admit to it...my guess is that so are the Powermags. Metalform tubes and Metalform followers would work.

I'm experimenting with Metalform's round followers too. It's a good design...
especially on the slidestop locking shelf...but they still need a positive stop
device for that last round. I think I've got it figgered out, and am currently testing two Powermags with the round followers, with lightly modified Powermag springs.

Basically, what I've done is to file a small groove into the top of the followers...
first with a triangular needle file to mark the spot, and then with a round needle file to allow the cartridge rim to drop and grab as it tries to move forward and jump the follower. The groove's location is pretty critical, and I've settled on
having it grab the rim about .075-.080 inch from the release point. It can be
a tiny bit farther forward...but no farther rearward. So far, so good in a softball gun that I set up for Kelie...Low-power ammo and lightly sprung. I'll test the
magazines in a standard gun with hardball-equivalent ammo sometime this week.

Gotta git! The dogs know somethin's up and they're chompin' at the bit. Gonna let the pups watch my three boys show'em how it's done, and turn'em loose to
give'em a taste of the game.

 

[Dave Sample]

I have a CMC in my Carry Commander as we speak. I use his magazines and none others. I started with these when that is all Chip had to sell and I have never had a problem with any of the 100 or so that have been through here. The thing that some folks do not seem to understand is that a 1911 is a precision machine consiting of 58 parts. The magazine is an important part of that system, but has to be inserted in a 1911 that has been built right. As a general rule, 1911's are very forgiving in that they will function with all kinds of ammo and magazines, until something changes in the system. The magazine catch has an important job to do in this system and if it is a little high or a little low, things change. There is a built in fudge factor there but toterances have to be fairly close. The magazine has to be happy with the magazine catch, ejector, extractor, breechface, feed ramp, barrel throat, barrel set back, chamber, recoil spring tension and ammo configuration. If one of these things are not in tune, problems start. It is easy for people here to blame everything on three factors. I do not operate that way. That is why good pistolsmiths do reliablity tune ups and address these issues so that the 1911 will run 100% when they are done. The factory does not have time for these tweaks nor do they really care about anything except selling their guns. Most people get 1911's that will run with 230 grain hardball out of the box. That is what they are intended to do. Most of these will operate with a variety of magazines. But there is a few where the tolerances all go the wrong way and that is why we have malfunctions.
I built a 10mm Centaur that loved 45ACP Metalform magazines with the ugly orange followers. It was a 45/40 and fed like grease with those magazines so I had five of them around that went with the gun when I traded it for a $4000.00 diamond ring. It would also do fine with CMC mags, but in those days , I was shooting matches with various 1911's and like each one to have it's own reliable magazines. A magazine that works is a good one to have. If a magazine doesn't work, get rid of it.

 

[Ken Rainey]

Hey Chad,

I got me a couple of those 8 rd CMC Powermags with the shooting star followers in 'em to try out and although they fed fine, they wouldn't engage the slide stops in either of my Kimbers reliably....sooooo....I put in the regular flat, dimpled followers from a couple of old unknown brand GI type 7 rd metal mags that had lost their baseplate welds and now they work like a charm......no longer 8 rd mags but 7 rd mags that work!

I like'em and may end up using this set up for my "extra" carry mags instead of my set of 7 rd Wilson Combat mags. Not that the Wilsons have gave me any trouble - they haven't, but then, I only keep my mags loaded with 6 rds so as to have a little more edge in reliability.

As always, YMMV.

Ken

 

[moorerwc]

Mr. Sample, I understand what you are saying and I hope to one day have a smidgen of the knowledge that you do about ole slabsides--maybe one day I'll learn to tune all aspects of the 1911.
But I also think that it is worthwhile to try to find magazines which will run across the widest range of variables for guys like me who are currently stuck with relatively factory-stock guns. Such magazines can act as a diagnosis to look elsewhere.
Like I said, I didn't like the way the stock CMC followers were working in my guns, so I changed them and have had limited success.
It took me a while to figure out Wilson's weren't all they're cracked up to be--I had 2 out of 6 that were causing serious problems and then one of the previously reliable mags stopped locking back when empty, so I got fed up and went looking for a more durable fix instead of immediately spending more money on new Wilson followers and springs.

One plus for the Power mags is that their base pads seem to be made out of slightly softer plastic than the stock Wilsons. I _think_ (huge supposition w/o evidence) that they might be less likely to crack with hard use--I've always felt more comfortable when I replace wilson's plastic pads with their aluminum ones.

Tuner, I just eyeballed it as I don't have a caliper, but it looks like there is more lateral play between the follower and mag sides in my recipe than there is on a stock Colt 7rd. mag--I don't know if this might make it tolerate dirt better or if it will cause problems down the road. Thanks for the info about the round followers--but for now I'll keeping working with this recipe as I'm not as handy or knowledgeable as you--but it does seem like you might be working on a near ideal mag for preventing cosmetic damage to AL frames.
Also you might enjoy reading through the post on www.tacticalforums.com about 1911 mags--Hilton Yam and Dr. Gary Roberts (DrGKR) have made quite a few posts about their frankenmag experiments--might be useful to compare notes if you have time.

Ken, looks like your recipe is almost identical to mine. Keep me posted on any problems you see and/or longevity--and I'll, of course, do the same.

-Chad

 

[1911Tuner]

Magazine Zen

Tunefucious ask honorable Captain:

Is it wiser for a man to tweak honorable 5-dollar magazine to work in 400-dollar gun or buy hand-built 4,000-dollar gun to insure reliability with Powermag?



Tunefucious say:

All honorable forum members who wish to throw away delinquent magazines may send to Tunefucious...who will persuade delinquent magazines to become productive members of honorable range magazine family.

Go forth and prosper, young grasshoppers.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff must admit that he views this thread with some amusement ...

The New School Guru tells us that the Ol’ .45 is nothing less then a precision instrument with 58 parts, and so finicky that only those that are entirely hand built with the greatest of care can be expected to work. Even the sligest deviation in locating the magazine within its well will spell disaster.

How is it then that Colt, Springfield Arsenal and various other contractors were able to produce over two million pistols (in rounded numbers) that functioned even though they were sometimes rebuilt with major components, such as slides and barrels, from contractors entirely different then the one that originally built the gun?

How can it be that these guns functioned with magazines that were made by dozens of different sub-contractors, as well and the primary contractors themselves?

Are we to believe that while major world wars were going on each pistol was assembled with the care the Guru deems to be necessary? Yet it is a matter of record that these guns did function, and function well. In all instances exceptional handwork was held to a minimum, yet they were and remain dependable.

Given its record, the Old Fuff would postulate that this veteran warrior is no Prima Donna, although some of today’s builders, custom and otherwise, may have made it so. It seems improbable that it should be necessary to make a magazine out of parts - a tube from one place, a spring and follower from others - to obtain reliable feeding. Our fighting men knew no such luxury. They were issued an arm and magazines - made by whomever - and went forth with justified confidence that everything would work, and it usually did. One could bet their life on names Iike Colt, Springfield (the government arsenal, not the company), Remington-UMC, Remington-Rand, Ithaca and a host of smaller contractors.

So far as I know, Uncle Sam took delivery on the last new 1911 pistol in late 1945. Yet is some far places, Special Operation units are still using a few of them in preference to the M-9 Beretta. They are doing what they have always done - work under the worst possible conditions. These are pistols that John Browning intended them to be. You are welcome to the rest.

 

[sm]

You know, If'n a fella was really worried about 58 parts working when need, worried about being magazine dependent ...he could get himself a OLD K frame like a Model 10 . Wait - that won't work , 'cause that design goes back to eighteenhunderedninetysomething.

We can't have that. Thinking....still thinking....Solution!!

Everyone buy a newgangled plastic gun. Some old farts will take any all OLD 1911s ,OLD K frames and other OLD antiquated revolvers ...get these "things" out of circulation.

Its for the chillren.

FWIW - " I are an old fart"

Old Fuff, Tuner, Keenan..others...shush...work with me here...

 

[1911Tuner]

re: Magazines and Other Stuff

Well said Fuff...Have you ever considered gun writin' as a career?
______________________

Moorerwc said:

>> it does seem like you might be working on a near ideal mag for preventing cosmetic damage to AL frames.<<

Bingo! And doin' it without havin' to resort to a plastic follower, too. This is an insightful lad...Yessiree!
______________________

And:

>>...lateral play between the follower and mag sides in my recipe than there is on a stock Colt 7rd. mag--I don't know if this might make it tolerate dirt better or if it will cause problems down the road.<<

Trouble! Yessir, there's trouble right here in River City! Follower ain't stable
side-to-side...and the clearance lets lostsa dirt IN amongst the spring coils. Can't be a good thing...Nopers.
____________________

SM! Mah fren and fellow K-Frame advocate! When ya figger out how to set up a 7-shot, .45 caliber K-frame...I'm in!

 

[Old Fuff]

sm is absolutely right! Why would ANYONE want anything as old and out of date as a S&W 1905 Hand Ejector (a.k.a. "model 10"). Why it isn't even a Magnum, just a .38 Special - and a whole bunch of 'um aren't good to go with +P ammunition. Fixed sights too, with no glow worm dots in 'um, and where do you mount the tactical rail thingie?

What if ya get into a big-time gunfight, with only 6 shots to go before having to reload - if you remembered to bring extra ammunition!

If you are so unfortunate as to have some of these it would be best to get rid of them fast! After all you wouldn't want your buddies or neighbors or co-workers to find out.

sm and I will take them off your hands as a favor, but we would expect you to pay the shipping and FFL charges. Remember the rule: If it's old its cheap ...

 

[sm]

psst.. Old Fuff
Does this mean I get the application form for becoming a Reprobate now?

Tuner, Tuner Tuner...what am I gonna do with you? I can't count past 6 on a revolver and neither can you. 'Sides, just cause we like them K frames don't mean we can't enjoy the OLD S&W wheelies that fire the .45 ACP now does it?

Umm them are "OLD " too...these are not any good either...donations accepted on these as well.

Magazines...Old magazines are no good either...especially the ones marked USGI, and Colt...and they only hold 7 rounds. Again - just here to help folks out ,donations accepted.

 

[Spitfire]

1911 mags

Now Tuner don't you go hording up all those metalform mags!!! I need a hundred or so, stainless preferably.

 

[Old Fuff]

sm:

On the basis of your generous offer (sniff) to provide a fitting home for older destitute and abandoned S&W K-frame revolvers, N-frame .45’s and unloved 7-round 1911 magazines ...

I have decided to accord you with the rank of Probationary Reprobate.

However as your status is, for the time being only probationary I will expect first dibs on what ever turns up. You do not have the necessary fortitude to take care of too much “junk†at once. Go slowly and carefully because pre-war stuff can be seriously addictive.

 

[sm]

I have decided to accord you with the rank of Probationary Reprobate.

< Grateful nod of head , hearty handshake, Humbled>

Yeah try taking a plastic pistol with a plastic magazine and opening a bottle ....but if'n you have a real gun with lanyard ring and a real 7rd mag - you can!

Old Fuff - how'd I do?
Tuner - where is a mod when you need one? Tuner... putting in a request for member status name change from Senior to Probationary Reprobate - please sir!

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Old Fuff - how'd I do? <<


From this neo-Reprobate's point of view you're doing great.

I'm sure that Tuner will be along before long ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Mod Request

Yew rang?

Never changed a username...and ain't gotta clue what's involved.
Maybe one of the senior mods will come along and instruct me in the correct procedure.

 

[Jeff Timm]

Well said Fuff...Have you ever considered gun writin' as a career?

Can I hold your coat, arrange coffee for two and breakfast for one?

Consult with the widow about the gun collection?

Geoff
Who never heard such an insult in a public forum!

 

[Dave Sample]

About 20 years ago I was talking to Armand Swenson about ordering a couple of his ambi safety's and during the course of the conversation, he told me he was tuning up 100 GI 45's for the Cops in the Philipines. They used 1911 45's for duty weapons back then and when I was there in the 50's they were using them also. I presumed it was an army surplus thing. I guess he never met Old Fuff and Tuner or he would not have accepted the work. One thing about him. He knew how to make 'em run. He was a real person like me. If you want to believe that all 1911's are good to go right out of the box, that is fine with me. If you like $250.00 AO's assembled from junk parts , that is also fine with me. If you think WWI, WWII, and Korea were fought with 1911's , that is also OK. If you want to believe that there were no armourers in any of the Armed Service's that kept these Clunkers running, I will let you believe that, too. So let's have a big cheer for GI Guns that ran 100 % in the days of yesteryear. I leave this one to the knowitalls.

 

[1911Tuner]

re:

 

[Spitfire]

Old 1911's

Hmmm bang ur dead or or look at my custom match bling bling wonder gun with the tolerances so tight a grain or sand would render it useless, that seems to be the question. My no good fur nothin no way a factory can make a reliable gun Springer mil spec has yet to have a failure of any kind yet with hardball and jacket hollow points even in the that pos factory magazine, 500 rounds and counting. Guess I got lucky. Guess my friend got lucky with his too come to think of it. I choose bang your dead. Let's put one of those bling bling wonderguns to the same test Tuner put his entry level Springer thru.

 

[HD]

ok , please to riddle me this ...

i have one of them thar crappy junky cheap pisspoormade furrin 45s from darkest brazil ...
it functions with every mag (except wilsons) and every amnmo i can find incl. 185snwc and 200 flying ashtray w-out a burp ...
its just one them cheap ww2 knockoffs ...
so what am i doing wrong ? how come mine works (except 4 wilsons?)
tuner , will call you shortly ... HD

 

[1911Tuner]

Crappy Mags, Crappy Guns

Howdy HD! I see ya decided to surface again.

Funny...I've found pretty much the same thing to be true as you have. Maybe
we're just lookin' at it backward. Maybe it's the high-end, hand-built customs
that need certain magazines to run. Seems that the old junk USGIs and near ordnance-spec clones will run on about anything. I've had problems with
47Ds and Powermags in guns that haven't missed a beat in years when I use
GI mags, commercial Colt and Metalform 7-rounders with decent springs in'em.
Go figger.

Aha! I've got it! maybe there's an untapped market for high-end, hand-built
magazines. I betcha we could get about a hundred and a quarter apiece for'em!

 

[Old Fuff]

>> Aha! I've got it! maybe there's an untapped market for high-end, hand-built
magazines. I betcha we could get about a hundred and a quarter apiece for'em! <<

Great idea!! But you need a fancy name for them like: Tunerhawk Tactical Nuclear Wondermagazine.â€

It wouldn’t hurt to have a baseplate with a flashlight mount ...

 

[riverdog]

Going back about a year, I had a Colt 1991A1 that had problems with Wilson 47D 8 rnd mags -- it only had a problem with those mags, all eight of them. It ran fine with 8 rnd PowerMags, 8 rnd Les Baer mags, Colt factory mags, USGI mags and with Metalform mags (round follower). I dropped some of Wilson's round followers and heavier springs (7 round rebuild kit) into the 8 round tubes and came up with another winner, albeit, only 7 rnds. So what was it about Wilson 47D mags, the epitomy of mag perfection ? Don't know, but I no longer have a problem with that last round sitting on top of the follower with the slide locked back.

BTW, I haven't had any prollems whatsoever with my S&W Mod 19, 27, 28, 586 or 686. The 686 is back at S&W now for some recall work (probably not necessary, but why take the chance when the entire fix is free).

 

[moorerwc]

I don't think Old Fluff has enough sympathy for us young bucks. We do genuinely wish that we could've been around in the days of surplus USGI and post-war commercials dangling from the trees, but many of our threads deal with the 1911 scene of today--if you're young and on a budget the glory guns of yesteryear are mostly dreamt of.
Same-same with magazines. Yeah, I saw a whole buncha USGI mags at the gunshow this weekend, but the ever so honest dealer was kind enough to leave them in the bags stamped "seconds"--not quite WWII quality. Plus I've been bit by that terrible bug of modernity--the removable base plate.

I tried the original pattern thingy with my Colt 1991 and got tired of my hands bleeding from a vigorous workout and don't trust myself to file on it too much.
So, now the goto pistol is my Kimber (I know it ain't as purty as a Colt)--it has a minimally workable dehorn and a "ducktail" that work together to keep the blood inside my veins. And it runs like a champ with good mags. I know the weaknesses due to this forum and others and I will be changing parts out for real steel as time/money allow.

So have some sympathy for us young guys. In my generation, just talking about full size, carbon steel, 1911's (especially if you want one made in the U.S.) starts making the fella's eyes roll--they think I'm a foolish traditionalist at the tender age of 29. And you should hear the IPSC guys when they see me sticking to 7rd. mags and refusing to use a magwell.

-Chad