1911 nosedive...where to now

[627PCFan]

This one is for RC and 1911tuner. The gun is a caspian commander home build. Nowlin ramped barrel. I've got 700 rounds down with hardball and federal hsts. It will not feed the top two rounds of 230gn gold dots or and hornady xtps. After much trouble shooting I have a egw raised mag catch, relieved the slide stop pin (which wasn't rubbing the bullets) I tried mec gar, Wilson combat and checkmate mags, very consistent. I now think the big hollow points are catching on the bottom of the ramp cut or the hollow points are catching on the side of the frame where the ramp drops down. Wish I could explain better

 

[Control]

The gap between the front of the barrel ramp and frame looks excessive. I think the barrel should sit further back on the frame. A further back ramp would allow the nose on those fatter hollow points to hit the ramp first vs try to ride up the two side ramp cuts in the frame.

Did you fit the barrel yourself?

Where does it contact the frame when fully to the rear? Bottom of the ramp cut? Bottom of the frame cut that the barrel sits in?

Can the barrel seat further to the rear if you just hold it to the rear with no slide release pin holding it back? Can it sit further to the rear with the slide release pin in but no slide on top?

 

[627PCFan]

The barrel is a Nowlin Prefit with bushing Combo. There is a little barrel play when the slide is back, its natural resting position is usually farther back, probably half the gap you see there. That picture was taken after the round was stripped, jammed and then removed. Basically the round pushed the ramp forward to where the picture shows. Thats max forward.

"Can it sit further to the rear with the slide release pin in but no slide on top?'

No the distance/play is basically the same

 

[BigBore45]

i would slightly ramp the frame and polish it. I looked at my Taurus 1911 and Springfield 1911 and both frames are ramped and polished before the barrel ramp.

 

[dogmush]

i would slightly ramp the frame and polish it. I looked at my Taurus 1911 and Springfield 1911 and both frames are ramped and polished before the barrel ramp.

Yeah, but do either of those have ramped barrels? Or are they the traditional set up.

OP, that sound's like a lot of fore and aft play in the barrel. Shouldn't the link hold it back (and down) until it can slide up the breech face?

 

[Walkalong]

IMO, when the round dives down that much, it is a mag problem. I know you have tried more than one, but I would find a buddy with a gun and mags that work and try his mags.

But I also agree that fit doesn't look right. Perhaps the pros will come along and give a definitive answer.

I'll move this to gunsmithing and repairs.

 

[Drail]

In the first photo the round appears to be setting below the magazine's lips. The round should be hitting a ramp like that in the middle, not at the bottom. It looks just like what happens when you insert the magazine spring backwards and the nose of the round doesn't get elevated. Although every round will set a little differently none of them should be setting that far beneath the magazine's lips. So only the first two rounds set below the lips in every magazine you've tried? How old are the springs in the magazines? Has any mixing or swapping of springs and followers taken place to your knowledge? If you remove the first two rounds does the third, fourth and fifth set with their nose up higher in the magazine? The slide stop lobe also "looks" to be very close to the round in the photo but it's hard to tell from just the photo. Are there any marks on the case mouths/bullets/slide stop lug from contact? I would love to hear Tuner's take on this one.

 

[627PCFan]

Ive tried 2 mags per type, 2 WC's that I own and work great for hardball and the Federals, 2 new checkmates I ordered, and borrowed a buddies GI (no name) and a couple of Mec Gars. Its always the top 2 rounds across the board, the remaining 5 feed flawless. I hate to even mess with the gun because its been a great build. I have had only had 2 FTE's over the course of 700 rounds and both of those were crappy handloads by me with the exception of the GD's and XTP's.


I wonder if your onto something there because it seems to only be hand loads with reloaded brass. It eats anything new no problem. I do know that its not a case headstamp specific problem.

 

[Drail]

Now you're cookin'

 

[627PCFan]

Ok just grabbed a reload. Federal Brass, 230gn Speer Gold dot. OAL 1.19, .4700 OD at the case neck. .4680 OD at the case base where it tapers. Shouldn't that base measurement be around .470ish? Would that effect the timing of the round out of the feed lips?

 

[Control]

I have fit a few standard 1911 barrels in my life with good success. I will fully admit that I've never fit or debugged a ramped barrel. I wish I could be of more help!

I can say however that when feeding, if the round is pushing the barrel ramp forward to the point where the sides of a fat hollow point are hitting the frame cutout for the ramped barrel then you are basically using the frame as your ramp at that point and not the ramp on the barrel.

I would not expect fat hollow points to feed on your *frame* ramp as is. I would expect the first round or two to jam up because the *frame* ramp is not cut low enough. The problem may be even worse on your gun given that you have two nasty little edges on the frame ramp where it has been cut to accept the barrel ramp.

I suspect that a "higher than normal match catch" or a special "present the rounds higher than normal" magazine are band aids on the real problem. This opinion comes from my own experience as well as good advice from the following thread about frame ramp depth and nose dives.
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=121954

I googled around a little and found a ton of threads on ramped .45 barrel feeding issues with JHPs. The two most prevalent fixes seem to be to either a) polish the frame ramp and barrel ramp to fix things or b) figure out how to set the barrel back further to assure that the rounds hit the barrel ramp vs. the frame. Again, I'm not qualified enough to propose the correct fix here.

 

[rcmodel]

230gn Speer Gold dot. OAL 1.19

They are Seated too short.

Speer manual says 1.200".
But longer almost always feeds better.

I would seat them as long as your chamber will accept without the bullet hitting the rifling leade. (Plunk Test)

rc

 

[627PCFan]

1.90 is as long as those big honkers will fit in the mag. I had to work my way shorter during load development. They all pass the plunk test.

 

[rcmodel]

Now you lost me.

Where did 1.90" come up?

And how did you get from 1.90" down too 1.19"?

At any rate, I would bet money being that short is causing your feed problem.

You said it work fine with factory loads, so it isn't the gun.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

1.90" is not a possible OAL for .45 ACP.
He probably had trouble with that keyboard thing. Don't you just love Internet Reloading Data?

The Gold Dot bullet may be so blunt that 1.19" is as long as it will fit his magazine.

I am not an Integral Ramp Guy, but I don't think that one should set that far ahead of the frame.

 

[627PCFan]

Sorry about that. No worries, I only buy material for the govt all the time. Decimal points are minor details Yeah, 1.19 OAL to clear the mag and not rub when loaded. I'm thinking might be time to get another set of 45 dies. I have a set of Lee dies and I don't like how it sizes the case at the web so small. I have serious reservations if that tapering is causing the feeding issue.

 

[Jim Watson]

The die is not the problem.
Try some roundnose bullets.

 

[RainDodger]

I've loaded 230 grain Gold Dots to two different lengths and they both have worked perfectly in 1911s - not ramped barrels though. 1.227" and 1.220". rc is right about longer being better, in my experience. I found that with my ramped barrel .38 Super and ramped barrel 9mms.

 

[Walkalong]

The factory 200 Gr Gold Dots I measured were an average 1.211 OAL. I loaded mine at that, +/- about .002. They ran great at that OAL in a 3" ramped barrel Kimber. With the slide open the ramp on the barrel is slightly ahead of the ramp on the frame with the barrel pushed back with my finger. With it forward there is a gap about 3/4 as big as in your pic.

 

[627PCFan]

UPDATE:
I finally got around to messing with it. I did a couple of tests with some HP Xtreme Plated bullets (I learned post-OP that they wouldnt load either) and loaded them up with and slingshotted the slide to engrave the point of contact that was hanging the bullets up. Sure enough it was the lip just below the bottom of the ramp on the barrel. I repeated this 3x to see if there was any deviation and it was consistent. So I disassembled and broke that edge of the ramp cutout on the frame with a rounded file. It didnt take much and I have had 100% reliability on loading tests with the gold dots and Exteme bullets....Off to the range.

 

[The Bushmaster]

All's well that ends well...Have fun.