1911 Recoil Spring for lighter bullet

[Charlie Martinez]

For several years I have been reloading 45 ACP with 200 lead SWC and 4.7 grains of Winchester 231 (or HP 38) for target shooting. My 1911 has a 15 lb recoil spring. It isn't the most reliable combination (as far as cycling goes) but it is accurate for 25-50 yards & the pistol cycles well most of the time.

Recently got a batch of 185 grain lead SWC and decided to continue using the same load for them. Accuracy is good however cycling is much worse than normal. Spent cases are caught between the slide and the barrel (not stove piping) instead of ejecting.
I assume that I can fix this with a different recoil spring and I can probably experiment with that at the range but someone here must know the answer.

Will reducing bullet weight (same powder charge) require a stiffer spring or a softer spring?

 

[murf]

softer. brownells should have a selection of springs.

luck,

murf

 

[cfullgraf]

With the lighter bullets, as murf said, a lighter spring. You might have to experiment a little and try a couple different sprngs. Fortunately, they are not expensive.

 

[Jim Watson]

It isn't the most reliable combination (as far as cycling goes) but it is accurate for 25-50 yards & the pistol cycles well most of the time.

Not satisfactory. Is it short recoil from a light load and stout spring or do you think it might be bullet shape?

If the springing, Wolff sells Calibration Paks with several different springs. I would go with the Reduced Power Conventional.
Stock No. 13112 - Reduced Power Pak - Conventional
This pak contains 1 each of 11, 12, 13, 14, & 15 Lb. reduced power conventional recoil springs and 3 extra power firing pin springs.
https://www.gunsprings.com/COLT/1911 GOV'T PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1#799

Or just put in a 10 - 12 lb and shoot.

 

[Blue68f100]

The main spring and firing pin stop have more to do with cycling than the Recoil spring. The only function of the RS is to feed a round. I run a 14 # RS with a 23# main spring, small radius stop and I have slide mounted dot sight. I'm shooting 185gr LSWC using WST which is a faster powder than the W231. Going to a faster powder will help too. If you FP stop is the std radius you may need to drop the main spring. If it's a small radius going to a std large radius will make it work.

 

[Rule3]

Not satisfactory. Is it short recoil from a light load and stout spring or do you think it might be bullet shape?

If the springing, Wolff sells Calibration Paks with several different springs. I would go with the Reduced Power Conventional.
Stock No. 13112 - Reduced Power Pak - Conventional
This pak contains 1 each of 11, 12, 13, 14, & 15 Lb. reduced power conventional recoil springs and 3 extra power firing pin springs.
https://www.gunsprings.com/COLT/1911 GOV'T PISTOL/cID1/mID1/dID1#799

Or just put in a 10 - 12 lb and shoot.

I have their "kit" a word of advice is to color code them with a dab of different colored paints, It is not a case of if you will mix them up it is when!

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Thank you everyone.
I have a variety of springs. I know I have a 13lb and Im pretty sure I have a 12lb. I'll try the 13lb. first and report back.
I have always been reluctant to install springs that may be too light for fear of damaging my pistol.
Do I have a legitimate concern?

 

[Jim Watson]

One way to track springs is by weighing them. Only works for same brand and type.

No. Light springs for light loads is what you need, they won't beat up your gun. Not for the next 20000 shots or so.

 

[forrest r]

I use wolff springs in my 1911's

A variable power 16.5# spring in the 45acp/1911. This spring allows me to shoot 200gr bullets/3.8gr bullseye loads in 1 mag and p+ loads in the next. The 1911 functions with any load I've tried in it.

I use a strait #10 spring in the 9mm/1911 for target loads.

 

[lordpaxman]

I have and use the calibration pack @Jim Watson mentioned. It’s worth having if you have a 1911 and reload for it.

Recently got a batch of 185 grain lead SWC and decided to continue using the same load for them.

I just wanted to point out that according to Hodgdon online data, the Max charge for a 200gr LSWC is the starting charge for the 185gr LSWC. Your 4.7gr of 231 is about a grain under the 185 starting charge. I would recommend in addition to playing with the springs, at least add a grain to your load and see what that does as well.
If you’re looking for really soft shooting .45 loads, Clays, WST or N320 work really well at min charge weights with reliability, accuracy, and little chance of a squib. Good luck.

 

[Ru4real]

I have always been reluctant to install springs that may be too light for fear of damaging my pistol.
Do I have a legitimate concern?

Yes, legitimate, but easy to measure the severity. The distance the empty round is ejected is a direct correlation to rearward slide speed.

The sudden drop in pressure as the bullet leaves the bore is what causes the 1911 to unlock and is the start of the ejection cycle. The pressure still left in the bore, rapidly decreasing, is the push force to move the slide back.

Bullet weight (bullet velocity or bullet time in the bore, really) and powder quantity / powder type determine that push force.

Slide mass, slide friction and recoil spring mostly, return spring to a lesser degree, is what that push force is pushing against.

Changing return springs to a 13 pound spring is done to make the gun reliable. Make the gun reliable with factory 230 grain ball ammo since that is your baseline and what your gun was designed for.

Compare your handload thrown ejected brass distance to the 230 factory ball ammo, your baseline. Adjust your handloads, powder quantity and type, bullet weight, to get your handload empty thrown distance the same as factory ball.

Your handloads are now tuned to your gun, your slide speed is correct, and your gun will be 100% reliable. I do this for my carry and plinking guns.

I do spring changes for my competition guns, mostly to tame muzzle flip and reduce double tap times, etc.

 

[reddog81]

Wouldn't it be easier to just bump up the powder charge a bit?

 

[BBarn]

I've never had success downloading W231 that far when using light bullets in the 45 Auto. I agree with the suggestions to increase the charge if you want to stick with W231.

Also, as already suggested, powders with a bit faster burning speeds will work better for lighter loads. It did for me, as it has for others

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Your 4.7gr of 231 is about a grain under the 185 starting charge. I would recommend in addition to playing with the springs, at least add a grain to your load and see what that does as well.

I'm pretty much stuck with W231 & HP 38 because I have a lot of it. So if I raise my powder charge from 4.7 to 5.0 grains I can probably shoot 200 grain and 185 grain bullets, keep the same spring and increase reliability with both bullets.
I'm going to try that before I start messing around with new springs.
Finally what spring weight is best for the 230 grain hardball rounds?

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Not satisfactory. Is it short recoil from a light load and stout spring or do you think it might be bullet shape?

I don't think it's bullet shape because the slide is jammed by an empty case not by a new round.
After reading everyone's comments I believe the problem will be solved with a slight raise in powder charge from 4.7 to 5.0 grains. A lot of folks have suggested that I raise my charge to 5 grains anyway.

 

[Jim Watson]

Also, as already suggested, powders with a bit faster burning speeds will work better for lighter loads. It did for me, as it has for others

True, I load powderpuff .45s with Bullseye. But GETTING a different powder is the trick these days.

 

[Ru4real]

I'm going to try that before I start messing around with new springs.
Finally what spring weight is best for the 230 grain hardball rounds?

My 1911’s came new with 15 pound springs which I used for thousands of rounds.

When it was time to replace, I switched to 18 pound springs which were 100% reliable with 230 S&B factory hardball ammo. For me switching to an 18 pound spring reduced slide velocity, reduced muzzle flip when the slide hit the slide stop, and reduced empty rounds being thrown from 6 feet down to 2 feet.

For the same hardball load, 18 pound springs made them softer shooting guns, which is opposite of what logic would tell you.

The S&B Factory hardball is about 900 fps from my 18 pound guns and 100 % reliable.

My lightest load, 185 Golden Sabres, need 7.2 grains of Universal, and 1100 fps to be 100 % reliable in my guns with 18 pound springs. Note that this ain’t a 45 ACP load, something a little hotter, but it’s what I gotta do to use the 18 pound spring that makes the guns such great hardball shooters.

 

[Ru4real]

After reading everyone's comments I believe the problem will be solved with a slight raise in powder charge from 4.7 to 5.0 grains. A lot of folks have suggested that I raise my charge to 5 grains anyway.

Yes, if you are jamming on an empty case, and your gun works with hard ball, no spring change is necessary, and going from 4.7 to 5 will likely fix reliability.

 

[forrest r]

If you're getting good accuracy with the 4.7gr load why change it??? Put in a Wolff 16.5# variable spring and never look back.

Here's what Wolff has to say about the difference between a conventional spring and a variable spring:
The difference is both physical and operational. With a conventional spring, all the coils are spaced equally apart, except for the closed ends. In a variable recoil spring the space varies between coils with less space between coils at one end and more space between coils at the other end.

The way the two springs store energy is also different. For example if a conventional recoil spring is compressed 1/2", it might store 1 pound of energy. For every additional 1/2" this spring is compressed it would then store 1 additional pound of energy. When a variable recoil spring is compressed 1/2", it might store 1/4 pound of energy. The next half inch of compression might store 1/2 pound, the next half inch might store 3/4 pound and so on. In other words, a conventional spring stores energy on a straight line and a variable spring stores energy on a curve. If both springs are rated at 16 pounds, they will both store 16 pounds when compressed to the same working length, but the way they get to 16 pounds is different.

The variable spring works just as described above. With light target loads it opens easier then a conventional spring & slows the slide down on the back end (full 16.5#). The end result is extremely consistent ejection & lockup. 3.8gr of bullseye/200gr swc target load in a mn 1911/45acp doing a 10-shot group @ 50ft.


Same 1911/same variable spring shooting home swaged jacketed 225gr hp's with a hot p+ load of power pistol, 5-shots @ 50ft.


If you look at the blue picture in the top piece of wetpack newspaper (9+") you will see exit holes. That load was hot enough to go thru 9+"'s of wetpack with a double tap test. (2 shots in less the 2 seconds).


Anyway same spring for extremely lite loads to p+ loads. It fits in the mag & goes bang when you hit the loud button. That 1911 will function with that variable power spring.

 

[lordpaxman]

Finally what spring weight is best for the 230 grain hardball rounds?

16.5 is ballpark for a government model. I suspect each mfg will spec the factory weight and it may vary a couple of pounds. I believe Kimber is a bit heavier. They do have calibration kits with the variable rate springs @forrest r mentions.

So if I raise my powder charge from 4.7 to 5.0 grains I can probably shoot 200 grain and 185 grain bullets, keep the same spring and increase reliability with both bullets.

I understand you needing to stick to 231, especially these days, the powder suggestion is for the future when things aren’t so crazy. I don’t understand why you want to settle on a single grain charge for both bullets, unless that’s optimum for both. I would work up the loads independently and then decide what powder charge is best. Good luck.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I don’t understand why you want to settle on a single grain charge for both bullets, unless that’s optimum for both.

Maybe its just plain lazyness on my part but I hate to mess around with powder charges on my reloading machine. If I can get both bullets to work well using the same powder charge all I need to do when I switch bullets is adjust the seating depth which is (for me) a lot easier than accurately readjusting the powder charge.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

Put in a Wolff 16.5# variable spring and never look back.

Someone once commented to me about the "then new" variable springs but they never explained how it worked. Aside from increasing my target load a bit I am going to follow that advice.
Will a variable 16.5# spring also work for the standard 230 grain hardball loads?
I also install shok buffs on my 1911's. Does that affect spring function at all?

 

[JJFitch]

I too have experimented with 231 about 20-25 years ago. Excellent accuracy but my load was 4.8 grains. And yes I used a 15# recoil spring. As I recall I increased the load to 5.0 for 185 grain LSWC. I was shooting a lot of outlaw steel matches and had to knock over some heavy stuff to 35 yards!

There are of course differences in 1911's. Working up loads .2 grain at a time will get your gun running.
The loads you are working up in no way require a shock buffer. They can affect slide lock and may deteriorate and cause FTF's!

(Some steel matches are set up for much lighter loads!)

 

[forrest r]

Someone once commented to me about the "then new" variable springs but they never explained how it worked. Aside from increasing my target load a bit I am going to follow that advice.
Will a variable 16.5# spring also work for the standard 230 grain hardball loads?
I also install shok buffs on my 1911's. Does that affect spring function at all?

I initially put a shock buffer in when I put the variable spring in. Took it back out and tossed after 5,000+ rounds, really wasn't doing anything