1911; To locktite, or not to locktite...

[Risasi]

I have a quick question. This is an excerpt I sent to one of our THR members, but didn't get answer:

I loaned out one of my 1911's to a friend. It's a Springer pre-GI model. (Before they started putting those silly USGI grips on).

Anyway, they reported back to me that they broke my gun, as they said; "parts were falling off". So I just got down their way this past weekend, post July 4th party. I took a look at it was the plunger tube*?

Anyway, that whole housing fell off. There are two pins on this housing that fit into the frame, I don't see anything that holds this housing in other than friction from the two pins. Is that right?

Regardless, last night I ended up tack welding the housing back onto the frame with a little locktite. I figure it should hold, but I wanted to run it by you too.

This particular gun has to have about 40,000 rounds of 45 through it, and then I also have a Kimber .22 kit that I use on this gun. I couldn't even venture a guess how much 22 I've shot through it. I've kept it lubed and cleaned religiously, and there aren't any visible cracks or dings, etc. The barrel still locks up tight, and there is no play in the slide yet. Still shoots reasonably accurate groups at 25yd, and no jams. So I think I'm doing pretty good taking care of it. I just figured I'd check with you quick to see if I should be concerned about simply using locktite for this problem?

I don't want to name names, but I PM'ed this a fellow that has 1911 in his member name, and he's known for "tuning" a lot of 1911's.

I'm sure he's just been busy, or hadn't noticed my PM...

Anyway, those familiar with the grand old beast; what do you think?
I found out there is a tool for properly staking the pins on the plunger tube. You think I should do that too, or is the locktite likely to hold it fine? Or even worse, should I get cracking on removing that locktite and stake/solder the plunger tube like I should have from the beginning?





*Changed to proper terminology

 

[BobCat]

The fellow to whom you refered is the right guy to answer you. I am not qualified but will give you my 2¢ worth anyway.

Staking is the proper way to put the plunger tube on. I do not see that a little red Loctite would hurt anything, but it was not part of the original design (no Loctite in those days). There are two kinds of tools (check Brownell's) for staking the plunger tube on. I like / have the one that is like a block with a threaded pin - the other one looks like a modified Vise-Grip and may be as good or better.

Some people say to build up the recess in the grip panel - right over the tube - with epoxy, to help hold the tube. Once the tube is on and staked, put a little wax on it (to keep the epoxy from sticking to it), rough up the channel in the grip panel a little, put a *small* dab of epoxy putty in the channel, and put the grip panel on. The epoxy will mold to the plunger tube (but hopefully not stick to it). I've done this and it is simple. It should not be necessary - staking is what holds the tube - but it does not hurt anything either - just like the red Loctite.

See how easy it is to get a long-winded answer from an unqualified stranger on the internet?

 

[Jim K]

I may be old fashioned, but I don't glue things on when I can stake them. Make sure the projections are long enough, countersink the holes from the inside, and then stake that spring tunnel in place.

Jim

 

[Southern Raider]

Good to see that 1980's vintage Colts are not the only pistols with this problem. There seems to have been a time when they couldn't stake these properly to save their lives.

A properly staked plunger tube should never come out. A dab of loctite will get you by, but restaking is the right thing to do.

 

[Risasi]

I may be old fashioned, but I don't glue things on when I can stake them.

Wow, those are some fast responses. Okay guys, I'm going to dig up one of them tools. I see no use to subject myself to a "plunger staking gap".


I guess I'm probably due for some problems. This is one of my higher mileage (and favorite) 1911's. I've slowly been consolidating down to single stack 1911's and Ruger SP-101's. The reason is maintenance. I guess this is good practice for maintaining my own handguns.

 

[BobCat]

This is the one I was talking about:

http://www.brownells.com

634-000-001 Plunger Tube Staking Tool $34.23

Have fun!

 

[Old Fuff]

Some of the new plunger tubes are made using MIM technology, and don't stake worth zip. In fact some manufacturers have taken to using hi-tech adhesives to hold the plunger tube.

The first thing you should do is eyeball inside the magazine well and see if the holes were countersunk. If not, you know why the staking (if there was any) didn't hold.

I agree with the opinions about staking, but buying the tool makes the job somewhat expensive. If you do stake the tube I'd start with a new, top-quality one, and as mentioned before, be sure the holes are countersunk.

If you decide to use an adhesive I suggest getting one from Brownells at www.brownells.com and a phone call could get you some good recommendations.

In addition if you glass bed the little lip at the top of the left grip so that it is tight against the tube it can't come off. Be sure you use plenty of release agent on the tube and metal around it.

 

[Risasi]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm going to check it when I get home. Heh, hopefully I can get the tube back off again. If not, instead I might wait for the lock-tite to give out and fix it then. I intend to order lots of spare parts for all my main weapons anyway. I'll add spare plunger tubes to the list.

Fuff, that some good info there. I am pretty sure they are not countersunk, but I'll report back and let everyone know, if I can get it back off.

Really I guess if one has to re-crimp his plunger tube every 50,000-75,000 rounds, that's not too terrible a price. Heck the ammunition is what has cost me the most with this firearm. This particular firearm will be a good upgrade gun, for me to really learn the inner workings and maintenance of the 1911 system.
Of all the bottom feeders I have owned the 1911 design is the one I just can't put down.

 

[Jim Watson]

The holes for the plunger tube should be countersunk. That is a tedious chore with a Dremel burr. Brownells used to sell a teeny little reverse reamer for the job but it was very fragile. The left grip panel should overlap the plunger tube to keep it in place if the staking fails. Loctite can be a backup to a backup.

The one on my desk hasn't come off in the past 89 years, maybe soon?

 

[Old Fuff]

Really I guess if one has to re-crimp his plunger tube every 50,000-75,000 rounds, that's not too terrible a price.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Sometimes even quality tubes don't stake well a second time because the little flanges crack.

Why worry? Because if the tube comes loose the safety plunger can slip back far enough to get under the safety lock's thumbpiece (sometimes called a "paddle"). If this happens when the safety is engaged you can't take it off.

In an emergency you might pay a big price...

Perhaps it's a small point, but it shows the difference in perspective between those that understand the pistol as a weapon, vs. those who regard it as a big-boy toy.

 

[Risasi]

Point taken Fuff,

In fact I have had that exact problem, the safety would not release. But only when I had a .22 kit upper installed on it. However, now I am thinking the slightly different angle of the slide release on my Kimber .22 kit I have might have loosened the plunger housing. It has a slightly sharper approach angle, and may have been exerting too much lateral force on the housing if people would try to engage it.

Anybody who has a Kimber .22 kit may want to study how the slide lock safety and slide release engage on their 1911 receiver, just for their own peace of mind.

Also my 1911's are not really carry pieces. It's been a few years since they were. My SP-101 has been my reach-for gun. If I need more than that it's gonna be a rifle. However I do wish to make sure my 1911's are battle worthy, and this has been an ongoing project this past year.

-----

So to report back, no, the locktite was pointless. I peeled the housing off in about 1.5 seconds. And yes, it is true, the holes in the receiver are NOT counter sunk.

This is a Springfield GI Model 1911-A1 that I bought NIB, the receiver manufacturer is Imbel, and it is marked as 2004. Like I said above 40k+ rounds of .45 through it, plus countless .22's. I bought it for something like $500, and it's been very good to me. I

I suppose I should find a way to countersink the holes while I'm upgrading this gun. I'll keep this thread updated if there is anything noteworthy that comes along.

 

[mrmeval]

There are specific versions of loctite for specific needs. Getting exactly the right one would probably cost as much as the tool. BTW I despise henkles page so here's another brand with a clue.

Please check the specifications but I'm sure you'd want the
retaining compound rather than the treadlocker. It's designed for cylindrical parts such as pins, shafts and the like.
http://www.surlok.com/retainer.htm

I wish they'd sell it in single units. Ah well, loctite is easily available.

 

[Jim K]

Dremel has a little round burr (larger than a dental burr but same idea) that can be used to countersink those holes.

Jim

 

[Risasi]

Followup:

Well, I just figured I'd post a followup.

I got a plunger tube crimp tool from Midway. I ended up countersinking the two holes by hand using a round head dremel tool. I countersunk the holes perhaps one quarter of the way in. I ran out of time as a friend needed to borrow this gun for a training class we went to. Anyway I just re-crimped and skipped the locktite. So far it's shot a couple hundred rounds through it without issue. (Okay, my friend had two FTE, but I'm positive he limp wristed it.)

I'll likely take it back off though and change out the plunger tube spring, and replace the whole plunger tube in the near future.
I noticed the slide stop is very tight when putting this gun back together after a rebuild. For now it's gone back into long term storage in my secret underground lair. I want to dig up two more 1911 receivers and rebuild them the way I want them. But that's another subject.


Also another FYI; I found in the Springfield manual it actually says you should NOT use a .22 kit with this gun. However, like I said before I have around 40,000 rounds through this gun, plus who knows how many .22's. Rarely (i.e I can remember three) have I had a jam. All said and done if I have to replace a plunger tube every 40k, I consider that cheap maintenance to also practice with a .22 kit on it.

Case closed...