1911 Toggle link pin

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Dudedog

Dudedog

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I purchased a Springfiled 1911 9mm "Loaded". I have abot 3000 rounds thru it. (normal power loads, no +P, +P+)
After the last range trip I went to clean it and when I removed the barrel the toggle link pin fell out. :what: :eek: :banghead:. I will be giving Springfiled a call Monday. I have other 1911s and have not had this happen. I always made a point to lube it when cleaning the pistol.
So my questions are
1. Is this expected given (what I consider) a low round count?
2. Can I just get a replacement pin or is there possibly an issue with the barrel as well?
3. To replace just tap in the new pin with a brass hammer, or is it press fit?

(Hopefully I won't have to send the whole firearm off to Springfiled for repairs. Or should I in case something else is going on?)

I have never actually given this part much thought. It holds the toggle to the barrel, clean, lube shoot, repeat.
 
Either the pin is slightly undersized or the hole in the link hole oversized. This sort of stuff should be an easy fix and Springfield would be better off sending you a new link & pin.
 
Not an uncommon for the barrel link pin to come out. I've had several 1911s that did it, no issues from the gun, the frame will hold the pin in place during operation. Actually I've never owned one that I couldn't just push the pin out with pressure from the pad of my finger or just tapping it with the pin oriented vertically. If it bothers you I've read some owners have staked them in place. Personally I would just leave it as long as it doesn't look like it fell out because the hole is being worn open or elongated.
 
I have worked on lots of 1911s that had link pins fitted so loosely they would fall out. I would just stake it into the barrel lug with a good center punch - make sure you have good solid support (like a bench block or a heavy anvil) under the barrel lug when you stake it. As said above, when the gun is assembled the pin cannot go anywhere. It is just annoying when tearing down and reassembling.
 
I will see what Springfield has to say Monday. If Springfield says that is the norm then I will stake it. It was tight for the first 2XXX rounds. Of course when I was cleaning it and it fell out I tried to catch it and proceeded to knock it halfway across the garage. :cuss:

I found it hiding under the toolbox after searching for a bit...ok well more than a bit.:banghead:
(note need to buy a couple spare pins, lesson learned searching for this one)

I am assuming here that it would be better if it was not so loose that it falls out, or does it really make any difference?
 
I have one that will work out if I am not careful. I don't worry about it. Just remember to watch out for it getting away, or stake it carefully.
 
The issue isn't so much the loose pin as it is why it's loose.

If it's a simple matter of pin or hole size, it's not a problem and easy to remedy. Staking is one way, though I consider that an expedient field repair. Using an oversized pin is the preferred method.

If it was once tight and loosened because the barrel is stopping on the link, and wallowed the hole out...it's a whole different can of worms.
 
1911 Tuner
:eek: it was tight for the first 2XXX rounds. Now it is so loose it falls out.
I would appreciate any thoughts you have on this. Possible cause/solution.
(and I know it might be hard to say without being able to look at the pistol, but I value your opinion) (any pictures that I could take that might help with this?)
Maybe sounds like the gun may need to go back to Springfield.
 
If made to spec, that pin should have beveled or rounded ends so it can be staked as show in BBBBill's second picture. It is normally a slip fit, but some custom smiths will make their own pins to be a press fit so they don't fall out.

Jim
 
It's easy to check for stopping on the link. Pull the slide stop pin and reinsert leaving the slide stop lever hanging down next to the trigger guard. Press the muzzle firmly against a table or board, pushing the barrel all the way to the rear. Now wiggle the slide stop. If it swing freely with no drag you're golden. If it is tight you're stopping on the link.
 
I think I've seen more links 'stretch' to make up the difference then wear the pin hole in the barrel lug out loose.

It was quite common on GI guns to see them staked in place with light punch marks on well worn GI guns that had been through re-builds.

Myself?
It doesn't bother me if I can push the out for through cleaning under them.

I wouldn't get my panties in a bunch over one loose enough I could push it out if I wanted too.

rc
 
Thanks BBBBill.
I will check it. Busy,busy at work and I did not have a chance to call Springfield.
Not so much concerned over the loose pin but as to why it was tight then 500 rounds later it became so loose falls right out. :scrutiny:
 
The test may not be valid if the hole has wallowed out.

I'd measure the original pin diameter and get one that's a half-thou oversized and press it in and then do the test. If there's any binding...even light binding...it'll just loosen up again.

If the binding is light, the cure may be as simple as taking .003 inch or so out of the frame bed, or it may be more complicated.

If it's happening because the hole in the lug is mislocated or the rear face of the lower barrel lug is too far forward...it'll require a new barrel.

If it's due to the vertical impact surface in the frame being located too far rearward...it gets even more complicated and expensive.

Stopping on the link...if allowed to go on...will pull the lower lug loose from the barrel. I've seen it pull clear through into the chamber...and that's not good.

I'd start with the oversized pin and keep an eye on it. If it loosens up again, send it back with a detailed description.
 
For better or worse right now the slide stop is loose when doing the test.
Springfield said they would send me a new pin and that the origional one was not "peened" correctly. (they mean staked?) I will measure the current pin and thier replacement pin and try to get one a little larger as reccomended.

What is the best place to get the pins? (will order a couple to have a spare on hand) Any favorite brands?

Looking on Brownells they have "normal" pins ~$2.50 and "match" pins about $12. Is it worth the extra $10 bucks or is it just a marketing thing and I will probably never notice the difference?

Should I order a replacement link as well when I order the pins? I will need to measure the one I have to get the right size.

1911 Tuner
Ouch, sounds like it may be nothing or a major pain. If it turns out it's not right after I replace the pin it will be off to Springfield.
Thanks for the info!

Thanks again BBBBill for the test.
Never hurts to ask the experts! :)

I called it a toggle link, I believe the correct name is just link :eek: but that's what my father allways called it when he was alive.
 
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You might be over-thinking this.

See step #7 in Kuhnhausens 1911 shop manual.

image.jpg

Loose (lightly staked) BL pins were as common as weeds in your yard on GI guns back in the day.

They made it through three or four wars before I got my hands on them.

Why did yours get loose in 3,000 rounds.
Normal break-in wear as the pin hole reamer marks wore in.

Lightly stake it on both sides with a center-punch mark and Fogadaboutit.


rc
 
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Being paranoid, it shoots really well for me and I don't want it to stop! :)

Thanks everybody.
 
Why did yours get loose in 3,000 rounds.
Normal break-in wear as the pin hole reamer marks wore in.
Click to expand...

Twist drills leave marks. Reamers don't. That's what reamers are for...to make smooth, round, precisely-sized holes free of machine marks.

Loose (lightly staked) BL pins were as common as weeds in your yard on GI guns back in the day.
Click to expand...

Yes. it was an acceptable repair on a gun that would eventually have the barrel replaced.

They made it through three or four wars before I got my hands on them.
Click to expand...

With the original barrels?

You might be over-thinking this.
Click to expand...

Maybe. I try to fix when I can rather than apply a band-aid.

I only know what I know and I can only prove what I can measure.
 
1911 tuner said:
Twist drills leave marks. Reamers don't. That's what reamers are for...to make smooth, round, precisely-sized holes free of machine marks.
Click to expand...

EVERYTHING leaves marks, and whether it's "smooth", "round" or "precisely sized" or not depends upon how loose your tolerances are. A reamed hole is better than a drilled hole, but is no where near what would be considered "smooth" or "round" for many applications. For a 1911 barrel link, it's good enough in the vast majority of cases.

Some notes on surface finishes here. Note that a typical reamed hole is 30 to 60 Ra while honing, lapping, or polishing can get you down into the .5 Ra range:

http://www.ctemag.com/aa_pages/2010/100604_Reaming.html

The surface finish obtainable when reaming generally depends on the workpiece material. The range for cast iron is 50 to 80 rms and 30 to 60 rms for steels, and a PCD reamer can impart a finish as fine as 8 rms in aluminum, according to Bysterbusch.
Click to expand...

Tolerances on the diameter of a 1911 barrel link reamer (.154" or so) will run 2 to 4 ten thousandths oversize (.0002" to .0004").

Dormer produces high-end precision reamers and drills used in the aerospace industry (several hundred dollars for a 1/4" drill bit is pretty typical), their section on reamers is here:

http://www.geers-industrie.be/upload/file/Dormer cat - bewerk - ruimen eng.pdf

There's a write-up on the roundness of drilled vs reamed holes here starting on page 220:

https://books.google.com/books?id=f...cQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=reamer roundness&f=false

Surface finishes obtained by typical machining methods are shown here:
 

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EVERYTHING leaves marks, and whether it's "smooth", "round" or "precisely sized" or not depends upon how loose your tolerances are.
Click to expand...

You know what I meant.

The barrel link pin is correctly a .0005 interference fit...not a slip fit.

Meaning that if the installer doesn't feel interference, he should select the next .0005 oversized pin.

Loose pins...whether the barrel stops on the link or not...leads to wallowed out holes. How soon they wallow out depends on how loose they are to start with.

Staking fixes the issue of the pin falling out and does nothing about preventing wallowed holes.

Staking is acceptable as an expedient field repair and little more...unless you're okay with a band-aid. I'm not.
 
FWIW we have two SA 9mm 1911 Loaded handguns each with 12K rounds and no sign of the link pin coming loose. I probably wouldn't know in any event unless it were to actually fall on the floor.
 
I agree with making that pin a press fit, but the GI specs were .154"+.001" for the hole in the barrel lug and .1555" -.0010" for the pin, and 3 position staking.

So the hole can be as large as .155", and the pin as small as .1545", a slip fit, not a press or drive fit. The reason for the staking is obvious. While the pin cannot come out while the gun is assembled, no one would want to have the pin fall out and be lost during cleaning and leave a GI in the field with an inoperable pistol.

Jim
 
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