1960 Colt 1911 38 Conundrum

Status
Not open for further replies.
BigBlue 94

BigBlue 94

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
3,311
Location
The Great American Prairie
Gun in question is a 1960 mfg Colt Super 38 Automatic 1911. It has a bo-mar sight rib and fancy Nil Griffe grips. It came to me from my Grandpa 18 years ago and he aint around to ask. It came with a single magazine, a factory Colt 38 Special 5 shot magazine. I have shot a little 38 Super out of it using the 38 Special magazine just fine.

The 38 Special magazine for a 1911 only works with flush seated Hollow Base Wad Cutter bullets due to the length of the normal 38 special cartridge. And i do have 50 or more rounds of HBWC 38 Special.

A recent thread with @Jim Watson and @CapnMac on a got me thinking on whether it was really in 38 super or 38 special. I took the slide off and chambered a 125 gr SWC 38 Special. It chambered and the action locked up with the breech visibly sealed. I had to use a pick on the extractor to get it to unlock. 38 Super also chambers just fine. Both calibers are headspacing off the rim on the nub at the top of the chamber. Sorry for the technical terms, im not well versed in 1911s.

I removed the barrel, and measured down to the only visible step in the chamber, right before the rifling started. That measurement, from the extractor slot face was approximately 1.075". So i ask the THR, what is up with this gun? Has it been rechambered to 38 Special? If so, is it still safe to shoot the 250 rounds of 38 Super that i have?

index.php


20220713_182523.jpg

20220713_182547.jpg

38 Special mag loaded with 38 Special HBWC ammo.

index.php


index.php
 
Have you shot it yet? If it cycles with those wadcutter Specials, its almost certainly not sprung for Supers in any event. If it is set up for Specials, I would think it would exhibit excessive and obvious battering and recoil when attempting to fire Supers- though perhaps the extra mass of the sight rib would compensate somewhat.
 
I believe that is what's called a "wadcutter gun" purpose built for target shooting. These are chambered for the .38spcl and only hold 5 in the magazine to ensure good feeding with the rimmed cartridge.

Do not shoot 38 super.

All this is from memory, I have no references. But I did own and use one for a while. Way back in the late 70's early 80's.
 
Based on the comments here and my experience, in the 1950's or so, it must have been a thing to convert a 38 Super to shoot wadcutter ammunition for bullseye competition.

In the 1980's, I wanted a 38 Super 1911 but they were hard to come by new at the time. It seems that Colt was not making many. I found a used 38 Super that was originally built in the mid-1950's with an Ellison adjustable sight on it. It turned out to have been modified to shoot 38 AMU, a rimless version of 38 Special wadcutter ammunition.

Since I wanted a 38 Super, I ultimately, replaced the barrel and recoil spring and went merrily along shooting 38 Super. 38 Super would not chamber in the 38 AMU barrel although 38 Special wadcutters would.

I'd put the 38 Special barrel and magazine aside and got a 38 Super barrel, recoil spring and magazine for the gun.
 
Last edited:
Tinman357 said:
I believe that is what's called a "wadcutter gun" purpose built for target shooting. These are chambered for the .38spcl and only hold 5 in the magazine to ensure good feeding with the rimmed cartridge.

Do not shoot 38 super.
Click to expand...


^^^this^^^ A lot of work went into that pistol, would be a shame to damage such an old school classic. Would be nice to know who built it and perhaps if you can find a target league with gentlemen of a certain age, one or more might recall both that and your grandfather.
 
Skylerbone said:
^^^this^^^ A lot of work went into that pistol, would be a shame to damage such an old school classic. Would be nice to know who built it and perhaps if you can find a target league with gentlemen of a certain age, one or more might recall both that and your grandfather.
Click to expand...

Oh trust me, damage is not what i want!

My gramps passed on 18 years ago last week. Ill turn 34 next month. So i almost was 16 then. I remember just a couple years prior when he ordered the KN grips from Germany and waited forever for them. He was so proud of them. That is the first i remember of this gun. Not sure when the Bo-Mar sight was added. The box of loaded 148gr HBWC ammo i have was loaded 1-16-2002, with 3.0gr of Bullseye.

He was not part of any shooting clubs while i can remember. His health was pretty terrible after he turned 40 so his shooting waned off a bit more every year. I spent time with him admiring his collection and reloading ammo. He started unloading guns on me about a year before he passed. Lol maybe thats not the right use of words... He started giving me his guns (that sounds better!) One uncle still wonders "where all those old Colts went". I was the one who spent time with gramps and i showed a huge interest in his hobbies.

Guess ill find a use for the 38 super ammo and magazine. Time to buy some 148 grain HBWC bullets i suppose!
 
Big Blue;
Your pistol was built for conventional Bullseye competition. Back in the 60's Bullseye competition was very popular. It was called the National Match Course and was fired in 5 round strings with two or three guns, a .22 rimfire, a mid-bore center fire (.32 or .38) and a .45. Some competitors used the .45 for both centerfire and .45.
The 1911 modified to shoot .38 wadcutters was a top of the line pistol of the time. Bill Wilson (Yes, that Bill Wilson) was one of the pistolsmiths that
were well respected for creating those pistols. A bit later, Smith & Wesson came out with their model 52 which was a modified version of their DA autopistol. Today, both the modified 1911s and the model 52s are prized possession with huge price tags. You sir have a very desirable pistol.
The basic National Match course was 10 rounds rapid fire, 10 rounds timed fire and 10 rounds slow fire. A 900 was one NM course with the .22, one NM course with the center fire pistol (.32 / 38 or .45) and one NM course with the .45. A full Match would be a 2700 and you would be TIRED at the end of that.
 
Thank you for your insight! Seems i need to do some digging in my stack of grandpas notes for any corresponding info. Some notes are tough to know if they were ones he sold or ones ive got. Helps to know what im looking for.

I will say the trigger is very light with a crisp break. Not like the Springfield 1911 i have.
 
Pressure- The recoil spring needs to be correct for the super.

The drawing shows the diameter of chamber & cartridge are different between the 2.

The Super is .008" larger in diameter.. May not be an issure shooting low pressure 38 spec? When brass expands a lot, it may come apart?

Take gun to a pistol smith. Have a chamber cast made.
 
BigBlue 94 said:
But it was originally 38 super... Wouldnt that make it capable of withstanding tye 38 super pressures?
Click to expand...
Yes, but I'd fit a 38 Super barrel to the gun and install the appropriate recoil spring. I think a 13 or 14 pound spring would do it but I'd check.

The barrel can be installed where the slide is not changed then you could switch the gun back and forth between 38 Special wadcutters and 38 Super.

In the early 1960's, Bo Clerke developed a bottle neck round for the 1911 for Bullseye competition. There was a 45 ACP segment of the competition and also an any caliber segment. Many folks would just shoot their 45 ACP guns, others would shoot other caliber guns with 38 Wadcutter guns being very popular.

Bo Clerke developed the 38/45 Clerke round to shoot in the any caliber segment. The shooter would change the barrel and recoil spring and shoot the bottle neck round in their competition 1911. The round was generally loaded with a wadcutter bullet. Same feel, same trigger pull, same sights.

A good idea but ultimately not very successful. The round persists as it can be uploaded to as potent as the 38 Super. (the 38 Casull is based on the 38/45 Clerke) I have two 45 ACP 1911's converted to 38/45 Clerke, one is a Government model, the other is a Gold Cup. I have the original barrel for the Gold Cup so I could return it to 45 ACP at any time.

The point of the comment is that within the original configuration of the slide and frame, one can change the chambering of a 1911 with a new barrel, recoil spring and magazine.

Fitting a barrel for a 1911 is getting easier these days for a simple barrel change but a high accuracy job is a bit more involved.
 
When I bought my 1950 vintage modified 38 Super, 38 Super would not chamber in the 38 AMU barrel. 38 Special wadcutter loads would chamber in the barrel.

I'll admit that my "Bubba" gunsmithing messed up the 38 AMU chambering for the gun but it has been a good 38 Super since.

More recently, I've dabbled with trying to make the gun a 38 wadcutter shooter again. I fitted a 38 Special barrel to the gun, a Kart barrel if I remember correctly. It shoots fairly well but it only shoots four of the five rounds in the magazine.

I have not done alot of gunsmithing working over the past couple years due the pandemic so maybe when life returns to "normal" I'll get back to fiddling with my 1911's. I have several other 1911 projects in process at present.

I do like working on 1911's.
 
Last edited:
First of all, congratulations on this wonderful gun that your dear father, who died prematurely, left you.
I would like to say that the gunsmith who re-chambered the barrel should have engrave new clear writtens to indicate the new caliber, possibly removing the old ones with a small milling or simply engraving a straight line to "erase" the old ones: it would have been a simple thing and it would have avoided possible errors of those who were not aware of the modified chamber. I would consider taking the barrel to a good gunsmith and having the writing corrected .
The problem with shooting .38 Super Auto in this pistol, in addition to the modified chamber, is that surely at this moment the pistol is equipped with a very weak recoil spring to be able to reliably fire the .38 Special wad cutters; if you shoot the .38 Super Auto you could damage the slide or the frame.
 
Last edited:
Take a 357 mag brass & trim till the action will close on it. Don't let slide slam into case. Close gently.
Should show length of chamber?

In 45acp, I used a sized and trimmed 30-06 brass to measure a Gold Cup series 80 chamber length.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

cfullgraf
  • Locked
M1911 chambered for 38 AMU
2
Replies
33
Views
2K
cfullgraf
cfullgraf
crowtalks
  • Locked
RIA 1911 in 38 super...pros or cons?
Replies
23
Views
837
Walkalong
Walkalong
Dog Soldier
  • Locked
Colt 1911 .38 Super
Replies
6
Views
1K
TRX
TRX
M
  • Locked
.38 special 1911 magazines, help!
Replies
10
Views
903
mtlucas0311
M
B
  • Locked
Is my Colt .38 super worth anything? Pics Inside--------->
Replies
16
Views
2K
BluesBear
B
Back
Top