1986 FBI Miami Shootout?

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These threads are always interesting. Rifle not handgun, bad tactics, larger caliber on and on and on.

I think you can learn from some of our wounded veterans that you can take multiple hits from even rifle calibers and STILL stay in the fight.

Obviously mistakes were made. The question is did they learn from them?
 
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What is also interesting is that both Ayoob and Sanow who many think are the be all end all of combat firearms and ammunition are pretty much shown to wrote more fiction than fact.
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Fiction is perhaps a harsh way to put it. Perhaps a better way to put it is informed opinion backed mostly by experience, non-scientifically collected and analyzed data, and anecdotal sources.

I remain pretty much convinced that anyone who thinks they know a whole lot about this, probably knows a lot less than he thinks he does. Very little in the way of scientifically collected and verified data, and a lot of supposition, 2nd/3rd hand info, and guesswork.

I am pretty sure bigger is better than smaller, aimed is better than spray and pray, and long guns are generally more effective than handguns. Beyond that, I am not sure anyone really 'knows".
 
My guess is that if they had been using a modern 9mm round, that bullet would have penetrated the extra couple of inches.
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My opinion has always been that in this case a 9mm FMJ would have done the same thing.
 
IF the 9mm round that hit Platt was the 9th or 10th or 12th round in the magazine, a 7+1 .45 wouldn't necessarily have helped...because Platt might not have been hit so critically that early in the fight. The prospect of an uninjured Platt in the fight instead of him being critically injured almost from the get-go, isn't a positive one.

Nor is it clear that a .355" hole in Platt's heart would have done much more than the severed brachial artery did. Maybe it would have, or not, but as others have pointed out, caliber choice wasn't the critical issue here. And a deeper-penetrating round might have penetrated the heart, or it might have yawed less and missed the heart entirely.

Poor tactics, handing operational initiative to the bad guys, going up against rifle-armed bad guys with not just handguns, but (in several cases) snubbies, institutional training deficiencies, etc. were the real issues, IMHO.
 
Like .38 SPL, I'm sad to see character assassination come into this discussion. It seems that Scorpiusdeus and Soybomb got into a bad batch of Koolaid. The site they quote is a smear job in which the writer took Dr. French Anderson's work, which Dr. Anderson frankly admitted was speculative at some points, and treated it as The Oracle, thus creating the false impression that any point where the doc and I disagreed must have been falsehood on my part. What I wrote about the incident came from FBI sources and participants, and I still stand behind it. A search on TheGunZone will turn up more info for those interested.

The lessons learned by the FBI, and by the rest of us by extension, went far beyond bullet penetration. The Bureau changed weapons and ammo, but also went to greater emphasis on long guns and made some profound changes in training. We'll never know how many good people are alive today, more than twenty years later, because of the lessons those courageous agents taught us on April 11, 1986.
 
There's really only 1 bankable "killing shot" and that is through the brain stem (cerebellum). Other than that, you never know. Deer take off and run with exploded hearts - I've seen it first hand. People who are pumped up or not scared react differently.

I'm sure most people have heard about "savages" being struck by bullets either in early America or during Colonial times in Africa, and some theories point to this being related to the natives not knowing what a gun was. There was no psychological connection between Gun and Pain/Death. This guy in the shootout was obviously pumped up and the guys in the North Hollywood Shoot Out were in a different mindset (many rounds made it past the body armor).

The problem here that I would see would be choice of weapon. Now I don't want to get too much flakk, but the difference between 9mm and .45 or .50 or .22 in this case probably didn't matter. But something high powered like a rifle or shotgun could have easily made the difference. Or something automatic for volume of fire. Or 00Buck, which is very forgiving at this range and probably would have ended things very quickly.

I don't know. Pfft. Big Bullet from a Long Gun. LEOs should always have access to them.
 
Like .38 SPL, I'm sad to see character assassination come into this discussion. It seems that Scorpiusdeus and Soybomb got into a bad batch of Koolaid. The site they quote is a smear job in which the writer took Dr. French Anderson's work, which Dr. Anderson frankly admitted was speculative at some points, and treated it as The Oracle, thus creating the false impression that any point where the doc and I disagreed must have been fa
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I'll certainly be glad, and even eager, to look at the other side of the story if you'd like to point me to what you feel like presents your case more accurately. We can speculate on who fired what, what order shots went in and things of that nature but I'm led to believe, at least at this point, that your write up was flawed even down to the basic details like the ammunition used and the wounds people received. For example, the claim of .357 rounds being used only .38 brass being found, buckshot wounds that were filled with birdshot, ruptured ear drums that aren't in the autopsy reports, etc. Were these claims in fact correct?
 
Be happy to, Soybomb, but save us both a little time. Have you ever actually read anything I've written on the incident, or did you just read the smear piece on the website you quoted?
 
Ok, I'm no cop. But IMHO:

1. The biggest lesson the FBI could have learned that day is that jumping out of the car waving your 'Nine around screaming "FBI" doesn't intimidate everybody.

2. They knew they were up against very dangerous men with rifles. They responded with pistols. They may as well have had Grandma's silver service.

3. Repeat after me: Handgun stopping power is a myth. Handgun stopping power is a myth...

4. The FBI got agents killed with poor tactics and instead of looking within the FBI's training for answers they blamed a bullet. The FBI's always blamed everything else whenever they screw up something.
 
Like .38 SPL, I'm sad to see character assassination come into this discussion.
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But not terribly surprised, I'd imagine. Too many people have an emotional attachment to a particular caliber or pet theory, when it comes to this discussion, and are perfectly willing to attack the messenger rather than critically analyze the message.

A shame, that.
 
this hits close to home

I live in Ft Lauderdale Fl . about 30 miles from the shootout scene ! I had a friend who is an FBI agent in the Miami office and several friends in local law enforcment ! I have read and reread the accounts of this event ! i saw the movie ! And discussed it with law enforcment friends ! i dont think that this was a case of what guns the FBI was using so much as it was of rethinking the tactics used ! a few things happened that could have changed the outcome drastically ! 1 is that the best shot on the scene lost his glasses in the felony stop ! He couldnt see well enough to shoot acuratly ! a simple pair of croakies on his glasses could have changes that ! 2 one of the agents lost his primary weapon (357 mag ) in the stop! he only had his 38 snub during the initial contact ! 3 one agents auto 9mm took a hit from the 223 round andwas rendered useless ! the agent had no back up gun ! shotguns were acvailable but were usually kept in car trunks ! both felons recieved wounds that would be fatal within the first few seconds of the fight ! They would have bled out if not wounded further ! They were not imediatly incapacitating wounds ! Those are the fatal errors as I understand them ! kevin

My heart goes out to the friends and families of the brave men who put themselves at risk to protect us from these types of dangerous criminals !
 
True, we should all have access to the right guns to do the job most effectively.

I was meaning to say LEOs should always have something on hand. These days, many of them do, in part because of Miami and North Hollywood. Now AR-15s and Shotguns are common in vehicles.

But yes, they should also definitely be common in our homes!
 
those BG's would have fit perfectly into anyone of a number of Norse sagas. The agents were simply not expecting to run into a couple of berserkers.
 
The agents were simply not expecting to run into a couple of berserkers.
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All evidence they had pointed to them being heavily armed. Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight. Don't come to a handgun fight with pistols when you have the choice not to.
 
I did not mean the armament- I was talking about the willingness to fight to the death, weapon in hand.
 
The lessons learned by the FBI, and by the rest of us by extension, went far beyond bullet penetration. The Bureau changed weapons and ammo, but also went to greater emphasis on long guns and made some profound changes in training. We'll never know how many good people are alive today, more than twenty years later, because of the lessons those courageous agents taught us on April 11, 1986.
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In every CCW class I teach I make use of the 1986 shootout and the many lessons learned. In teaching such a basic class, I still try to give my students training tips to overcome deficiencies that were clearly evident in that incident. Among the lessons learned:

1. Practice one-handed manipulation of your weapon.
2. Stay alert and stay in the fight. Just because you're hit doesn't mean you're out of the fight.
3. Make sure the means you choose to carry your weapon is secure and keeps the weapon available when you need it.
4. Don't be surprised if the BG doesn't go down right away when he or she is hit.

These are all important lessons for everyone, not just LEO's. Note that not a single one has anything to do with caliber selection or marksmanship. Mostly they have to do with attitude and not carrying preconceptions into a fight. I've read Mas' write up, the FBI report, and sat through several briefings given by the FBI field office in Denver about the aftermath and lessons learned, especially the changes in weapons and tactics engendered by the incident. The agents who gave those briefings in some cases were personal friends with some of the agents involved in the shooting.

All I can say about the subject is that Mas' post mortem coincides in almost all significant areas with those of the people most affected by that incident. My knowledge is third hand, but it did come from folks who were intimately familiar with those involved.
 
IIRC Jerry Dove died with the slide locked back on his Model 59 after switching mags. That's 29 rounds of 9mm fired, with ONE hit at less than 25 feet. Caliber discussions are secondary to marksmanship-under-fire issues.

JR
 
those BG's would have fit perfectly into anyone of a number of Norse sagas. The agents were simply not expecting to run into a couple of berserkers.
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Well and simply put.

It was an ambush scenario basically. From the viewpoint of the bad guys.
My Army training was simple in accordance to this. You fight your way out.
Wade into them and give them everything you've got. Initial instinct is to run like Hell, but being a soldier - you can't.
 
Like .38 SPL, I'm sad to see character assassination come into this discussion. It seems that Scorpiusdeus and Soybomb got into a bad batch of Koolaid.
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Speaking only for myself, I don't consider bringing up alternative information "character assassination". I don't know you anymore than I know the person who wrote about inconsistencies in your account. How can I balance one against the other? Well, for starters I asked the question:

Is it true that both of these guys not as "factual" as one might think?
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Now I have the DOJ report, kindly provided by Mr Price, to go by and I shall read that after I make this post. I'm sure you've had your share of "attacks", but this is not one of them. I am curious however so I'll dig further. You must admit that at a minimum there seem to be two different stories here.
 
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