1986 Miami-Dade: .357 Magnum or .38 Special?

[WrongHanded]

We all know that the Miami-Dade shootout was a pivotal moment for handgun cartridge development. But I'm not interested in talking about the 9mm 115gr Silvertip, or the 10mm, or the .40S&W. (Not right now anyway)

Some of the FBI agents carried .357 Magnum revolvers. It seems there are some people (not here necessarily) who just assume those guns were loaded with .357 Magnum ammunition. However, I've heard that many LEOs who had the option, actually carried .38 Special rather than .357 Mag. I don't know if that was true for the FBI at the time or not.

Wikipedia is suggesting all the FBI agents with .357 revolvers, fired X number of .38 Special rounds. You can see that info in the "Weaponry and Wounds" subsection:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

But we all know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source when it comes to the small details. So I'm wondering if anyone has a more reliable source?

Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, and load your .357 with .38s, but maybe that's what happened.

 

[trackskippy]

The 38's are easier to shoot quickly and accurately with. Good hits with a 38 is better than not so good hits or even misses with a 357 that's harder for you to control, especially the shorter barreled guns.

 

[WrongHanded]

The 38's are easier to shoot quickly and accurately with. Good hits with a 38 is better than not so good hits or even misses with a 357 that's harder for you to control, especially the shorter barreled guns.

Right. So were the hits from the agents' revolvers that were made on the two "suspects", with .38s or .357s?

 

[Starter52]

I've read the hits were with +P .38 loads.

 

[WrongHanded]

I've read the hits were with +P .38 loads.

I was just digging through some publicly available FBI files, and that is what I'm reading too.

 

[sgt127]

The classic FBI load was the lead 158 GR HP semiwadcutter.

I had an agent give me box in 1980 or so.

The FBI carried a weird 2 1/2” model 10 for awhile. Then standardized on the 3” Model 13.

But, I don’t know if they ever carried Magnum rounds in it.

 

[Ohen Cepel]

I have this book by an agent who was there;
FBI Miami Firefight: Five Minutes that Changed the Bureau: Edmundo and Elizabeth Mireles, Edmundo Mireles: 9780999510308: Amazon.com: Books

I have not dug into it though.

 

[Remington1911]

We all know that the Miami-Dade shootout was a pivotal moment for handgun cartridge development. But I'm not interested in talking about the 9mm 115gr Silvertip, or the 10mm, or the .40S&W. (Not right now anyway)

Some of the FBI agents carried .357 Magnum revolvers. It seems there are some people (not here necessarily) who just assume those guns were loaded with .357 Magnum ammunition. However, I've heard that many LEOs who had the option, actually carried .38 Special rather than .357 Mag. I don't know if that was true for the FBI at the time or not.

Wikipedia is suggesting all the FBI agents with .357 revolvers, fired X number of .38 Special rounds. You can see that info in the "Weaponry and Wounds" subsection:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

But we all know Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source when it comes to the small details. So I'm wondering if anyone has a more reliable source?

Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, and load your .357 with .38s, but maybe that's what happened.

I think you would be safe in saying Wikipedia is not the most reliable source when it comes to ANYTHING.

I think it was a....well that is just the way it was back then. I knew they had 38spl, but never knew just "what" the load was.

I think it is a very interesting topic on just how this subject has evolved over the years, and it usually changes due to a major event.

 

[mdf9183]

When I was on the P.D. we all carried 357 Mod 27, but were not allowed to have 357 ammo only 38+p.

 

[Rule3]

Highway Patrol used to carry 357 mag revolvers!

https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-guns-of-the-highway-patrol-a-three-way-six-incher-showdown/

 

[Choctaw]

This is from the FBI. Interesting reading. It looks like the service weapons were loaded with 38 Special +Ps.

https://vault.fbi.gov/FBI Miami Shooting 4-11-86 /Miami Shooting 4-11-86 Part 1 of 11 /view

 

[Remington1911]

Wikipedia is sure as hell more reliable than CNN or the NYT....

I would say different side of the same coin. John Stossel did a video on it, and to say it is of the same cloth would be correct. I don't want to link it or say much more, but search youtube and you will find just how far to the left it has moved....like all big tech, it is not what it once was.

 

[WrongHanded]

Okay, so they were using .38 Special +P LSWC-HP, not .357 Magnum.

So the question I have is, did that make them more or less effective?

Would the hits have mattered more with more powerful loads? Would they have hot even less with those more powerful loads?

 

[citizenconn]

Okay, so they were using .38 Special +P LSWC-HP, not .357 Magnum.

So the question I have is, did that make them more or less effective?

Would the hits have mattered more with more powerful loads? Would they have hot even less with those more powerful loads?

I've read fairly extensively on the subject and my personal opinion, which might not match those of others, is that the FBI agents who confronted the suspects were outgunned. More than that, their training did not prepare them to go up against former military trained adversaries whose first instinct was to shoot their way out of the situation. Police/law enforcement mentality/tactics vs military mentality/tactics.
Several agents also had setbacks right from the start (losing glasses, losing firearms, firearms becoming inoperable.) They were somewhat effective in hitting the suspects but not in stopping them DRT. Revolvers against a Mini 14 and a shotgun proved to be a lopsided encounter. Had they been able to wait for some of the other agents who were more effectively armed, things would have possibly ended very differently.
I've never been in law enforcement, only in the military, so I'm speculating, but it seems to me the current prevalence of the SWAT type training and mentality is what resulted from this and similar encounters, Uvalde withstanding.

 

[DeepSouth]

I wouldn’t be surprised if some officers carried 38’s exclusively in their 357’s just due to lower recoil and sound. With that said, I really have no idea what they actually were using. It is certainly an interesting question.

However, I’m sure with the increased bullet technology of today, They would have obviously been taken down in no more than 3 shots. (End sarcasm)

 

[sgt127]

https://gundigest.com/article/fbi-handguns-revolvers-of-the-past/amp

Apparently most carried the .38 Special round and the Magnum was somewhat limited.

That incident was a turning point for the FBI. Back in the Gangster era, bad guys fought back. Hard.

Then, for 50 or so years, the FBI relied on the command “FBI! Stop!” Etc to gain compliance. And, it usually worked.

These bad guys didn’t play by the rules.

Knowing who they were going up against. It should have been long gun and hard armor.

But, I really can’t blame them. Meeting that kind of resistance was not the norm.

And, let’s face it. The Average FBI agent is, a federal investigator. It’s even in their name. They really aren’t spooled up for vicious gunfights.

Miami SWAT would likely have had a better showing. Better training, experience and equipment.

The Agents did the best they could with what they found themselves in.

Mireles ended the fracas with a .38 Special.

Tragic loss. Lots to learn.

 

[burrhead]

Paul Harrel has a good vid about the shootout. It's worth a watch.

 

[chilehed]

I've read the hits were with +P .38 loads.

My recollection from the time was that this was the case.

It happened three or four doors down from a friend of the family (I grew up in Miami). I went by a few days later, there were bullet holes everywhere. Bad craziness.

 

[dirtman]

I have to agree with cit/con. The agents were "outgunned". Pistols are a defensive tool.. If I was pursuing someone with a mini 14, I would have at least the mini or better.

 

[GJeffB]

I think it was Mas Ayoob that did a pretty in depth analysis, perhaps in his book The Ayoob Files (?). Regardless, citizenconn seems well informed. The feebees had a study in Murphy's Law, virtually anything that could go wrong did. Under gunned, under prepared, one agent lost his eyeglasses AND primary firearm in the arrival vehicle crash as I recall, they did not have immediate access to long arms against armored and rifle armed para militarists, and unprepared tactics. As I recall none (?) of the .357 magnum revolvers were uploaded with full magnums. But, the FBI load (+p 158 LSWC) is not a mouse fart.

-jb, and some of the agents' actions showed they just clanged while walking

 

[GJeffB]

WrongHanded rightfully asked:

Okay, so they were using .38 Special +P LSWC-HP, not .357 Magnum. So the question I have is, did that make them more or less effective?
Would the hits have mattered more with more powerful loads? Would they have hot even less with those more powerful loads?

IMHO I don't know that's answerable. If the dog hadn't stopped to scratch a flea, would it have caught the rabbit?
As i recall either just before or (more likely after) the FBI was looking at the hotrod .357 110gr screamer as an alternative to heavy recoil. I can't accept any untested .357 would have made a difference. Maybe.

-jb, so often the solution isn't equipment, rather training

 

[.455_Hunter]

Like many disasters, there was a long chain of intentional decisions and/or random events in the timeline for this encounter that resulted in how the shooting played out. Change any one of them, and the final result has a high probability of being drastically different. This could be a simple as Grogan using a nerd strap for his eyeglasses, Dove's 459 not taking a Mini-14 bullet to the slide and getting put out of action, or Mireles not immediately getting hit in the arm and being able to fire his 870 directly into the still seated Platt. Remember, a cylinder dump of .38 Special +P 158 gr LSWCHP is what actually ended the event, so the caliber was not entirely helpless.

 

[N555]

You had me at "weapons and wounds".

 

[N555]

The 38's are easier to shoot quickly and accurately with. Good hits with a 38 is better than not so good hits or even misses with a 357 that's harder for you to control, especially the shorter barreled guns.

Yeah my 3'' to 4" gun "357mag ammo" is mild 357 to hot 38spl+p. It's a bit hotter than 9mm+p of the same weight out of a 5 inch barrel.

 

[Rexster]

Most agents, at that time, carried the .38 Special 158-grain Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point, in their issued Model 13 revolvers. Indeed, it was called the “FBI Load,” at the time. Some agents were able to qualify with, and carry, .357 Magnum ammo, and Supervisory Special Agent Gordon McNeill is said to have had such Magnums in his revolver. (I would have to search for a reference, regarding the .357 load that he used. I think that Mas Ayoob’s write-up specified the load, but my books that survived a flood, in 2017, are mostly in rented storage.)

I am saying this from memory, but keep in mind that I was a young LEO at the time, and had a bit of freedom to choose my duty load, so, was intensely interested in this incident. I bought the “FBI Load” to carry in my .38 Special snub guns, for years. I carried bigger bore N-Frame duty revolvers, at the time, until I finally admitted to myself that I had K/L-Frame-sized hands, in 1990. (I actually carried a couple of different .45 ACP duty autos, from 1991-1993, before returning to duty sixguns, but .357 Magnum, in June 1993.)