1986 Miami-Dade: .357 Magnum or .38 Special?

[sgt127]

145 gr Silvertip was the FBI Magnum load.

 

[Hal]

https://gundigest.com/article/fbi-handguns-revolvers-of-the-past/amp


And, let’s face it. The Average FBI agent is, a federal investigator. It’s even in their name. They really aren’t spooled up for vicious gunfights.

Miami SWAT would likely have had a better showing. Better training, experience and equipment.

The Agents did the best they could with what they found themselves in.

I can agree with that 100% based on what I saw take place back in the 1970s @ a bank robbery scene.
I worked in a strip mall - across the street from a bank branch. One day all hell broke loose and a half dozen police cars showed up - with sirens and lights - in the parking lot around the bank.
Along with the police cars, a food catering truck showed up, then after that - a good time after that - a few cars with guys in suits showed up dragging FBI windbreakers out of their cars,

Maybe it was all a matter of just coincidence/timing, I don't know - all I know is it struck me as funny that the catering truck showed up a good piece of time before the FBI did. I still get a chuckle out of it.

 

[Archie]

And, let’s face it. The Average FBI agent is, a federal investigator. It’s even in their name. They really aren’t spooled up for vicious gunfights.

The agents were ready to find and arrest. Platt and Matix were ready to kill. Everybody.

Mireles ended the fracas with a .38 Special.

Indeed. Just for information, one of the criminals was hit early on in the encounter. Stuck in the upper torso from armpit to armpit essentially, that first hit from a 9mm pistol was a 'non survivable wound' having destroyed the tops of both lungs. However, that hit did not stop his lethal actions.

Tragic loss. Lots to learn.

Most of what was to learn was ignored. Being properly prepared was ignored. Tactics were ignored. Mindset was ignored. The guns and ammo were blamed.

 

[citizenconn]

To refresh my memory I watched another documentary on the incident yesterday. In the robbery where they shot an armored truck guard in the back, there was a citizen who followed them after the robbery to the point where they switched from their stolen car to their own white Ford pickup. If it had not been for that citizen's efforts there is not telling how much longer their theft spree would have lasted. It sure was not because of FBI efforts.
Now the one FBI agent they nicknamed "Doc" whose name I don't recall, who extrapolated the search grid where they actually intercepted the suspects was certainly thinking above his pay grade compared to the others.
However, given the chance that they might actually intercept the suspects when they started driving that grid they were woefully under-gunned and ill prepared tactically. They should have known the suspects would go down fighting to their last breath. They were already aware of the firearms the suspects were using, yet I don't think there were any agents armed with anything but handguns except one who also had a 12 gauge shotgun.

I drive in hostile Houston rush hour traffic (where we average 3-5 road rage shootings a week) 30 miles each way six days a week. I have a 1911 with 2 extra 8 rd mags, a short barreled 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 9 rds of mini shells and another box of 20 behind my seat in easy reach in a sheath as well as a folding AR15 pistol in .300 BLK with four 20 rd mags in a backpack with my med kit. If there ever was an incident would I need anything beyond my pistol?

I sure hope not, but I am not going to take any chances. Besides road rage killings we have hundreds of armed carjackings, home invasions and other shootings every year, most of them perpetrated by groups of 3-5 bad guys. As the man said, better to have it and not need it than get shot because you didn't have enough firepower.

 

[The Night Rider]

Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, and load your .357 with .38s, but maybe that's what happened.

Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, using handguns at all especially when at least part of your backup team is armed with MP5s but that's exactly what happened.

 

[WrongHanded]

Seems strange to go chasing down armed bank robbers driving a stolen car, using handguns at all especially when at least part of your backup team is armed with MP5s but that's exactly what happened.

Agreed. Perhaps bureaucracy dictated no long arms in the cabin of the vehicles, just like it dictated no .357 magnum loads were to be carried without prior approval and justification from the Special Agent in Charge (which is what I read just recently).

 

[gunsrfun1]

That incident is old news by now, but I think it is commonly accepted that there were several things that just went wrong for the FBI that day, including -- as others here have rightfully pointed out -- not having the proper weapons on their person, and underestimating the threat. But of course, hindsight is 20-20. And I am in no way meaning to throw dirt on the two agents who died that day.
I remember when this happened, I talked to the brother of a friend of mine who was a Miami Dade cop. Without going into a lot of detail, he was somewhat dismissive of how the agents handled the entire incident. I do remember something he said about them getting lost, but he didn't go into more detail.
Remember that FBI agents are not street cops, and most have no street-cop experience when they are hired. They are primarily INVESTIGATORS. I'm willing to bet that most of today's FBI agents have never even performed a basic traffic stop.
It's not like the TV shows depicting the FBI.
As an aside, when I was in the Navy Reserve, I drilled with an ATF agent. He told me once that they referred to the FBI as "Famous But Incompetent." Yes, probably some inter-service rivalry going on, and maybe a bit harsh. But based on the behavior of the FBI in the past several years, I think there is an element of truth to that.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They are primarily INVESTIGATORS. I'm willing to bet that most of today's FBI agents have never even performed a basic traffic stop.

Depends on the position. Many really are just investigators from a functional standpoint, but they have their branch that handles the heavy stuff and those guys were on standby in the area but not able to get to the situation before it went critical.

As for probably not ever having performed a traffic stop? Considering the FBI doesn't do traffic stops, then probably not.

 

[gunsrfun1]

If you look at the qualifications to apply, no prior law enforcement experience is necessary. I've always felt that they should require some LEO experience. I realize it's apples and oranges somewhat, but just my opinion.
I used to be one of their biggest fans. Not so much anymore.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Up until recently, a LAW DEGREE was the requirement to get on with the FBI.
At the time, me and my fellow officers thought “who the heck would spend the time and money” (3yrs+) (on top of a 4+yr college degree) to get a LAW DEGREE to make $63,000 a yr (at the time]...
I tried to get on with the ATF, but was told I couldn’t because I was/had been a member of the NRA,

Told me everything I needed to know!
Actually they DONT WANT previous L.E. Experience because of prior attitudes or “baggage” you may have. They want “clean slates” to train/indoctrinate.

 

[DR505]

As an aside, when I was in the Navy Reserve, I drilled with an ATF agent. He told me once that they referred to the FBI as "Famous But Incompetent." Yes, probably some inter-service rivalry going on, and maybe a bit harsh. But based on the behavior of the FBI in the past several years, I think there is an element of truth to that.

Ask any ATF agent what all ATF and FBI agents have in common....the answer is that they all applied to the FBI.

ATF = After The Fact
DEA = Drunk Every Afternoon/Don't Expect Anything
CIA = Clowns In Action
TSA = Thousands Standing Around/That's Sexual Assault
And the list goes on....

 

[chilehed]

I do remember something he said about them getting lost, but he didn't go into more detail.

Oh, that absolutely happened. They called in that they were on the street behind Sunnyland, which is a shopping strip at the corner of US-1 and 112th Street. They were actually about 3/4 mile away at 82nd Avenue and 122nd Street; when backup arrived at the reported location and found nothing they had to stop and listen for distant gunfire to figure out where to go.

 

[Old_Grouch]

The Miami Dade shootout boils down to one simple thing. The FBI adopted the 10mm and, shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W for one reason. They did it to deflect from the fact that the entire debacle was due to lack of training and poor tactics; not an armament failure.

 

[dodo bird]

The Miami Dade shootout boils down to one simple thing. The FBI adopted the 10mm and, shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W for one reason. They did it to deflect from the fact that the entire debacle was due to lack of training and poor tactics; not an armament failure.

I agree and sometimes a good round from a powerful service caliber no matter what that may be. It doesn’t always stop a determined criminal. Even with good shot placement nothing is a guarantee. Ymmv

 

[rabid wombat]

Pistol rounds are grossly ineffective…regardless of caliber….hit a lot, hit important stuff…the only way to end things…

Bad guys with mini 14’s…bad guys with killer attitudes…you are at a disadvantage…..

 

[Shawn Dodson]

The Miami Dade shootout boils down to one simple thing. The FBI adopted the 10mm and, shortly thereafter, the .40 S&W for one reason. They did it to deflect from the fact that the entire debacle was due to lack of training and poor tactics; not an armament failure.

The Winchester 115gr Silvertip bullet fired by SA Dove did not penetrate deeply enough to reach and pass through Platt's heart. It stopped about an inch short. Had the bullet damaged Platt's heart, and impaired its ability to pump blood, then Platt wouldn't have remained conscious long enough to murder Grogan and Dove.

It's a situation where inadequate equipment (ammo) directly caused the outcome.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

SA Grogan lost his eyeglasses but is credited with landing the first hit of the gunfight on Mattix.

Immediately afterwards, Matix was temporarily incapacitated by a shot fired by SAIC McNeill.

 

[JohnKSa]

It's a situation where inadequate equipment (ammo) directly caused the outcome.

The bullet went through the upper arm on an angle for 3-4" of penetration, exited unshored (equivalent to 2-4" of penetration) under the arm, entered the chest from the side already expanded and then penetrated 7-8" into the chest. French's book has diagrams and autopsy photographs showing all that very clearly. Equivalent penetration if the upper arm hadn't been in the way would have been 12" to 16"--well within the spec that the FBI adopted after the shootout.

 

[WrongHanded]

The bullet went through the upper arm on an angle for 3-4" of penetration, exited unshored (equivalent to 2-4" of penetration) under the arm, entered the chest from the side already expanded and then penetrated 7-8" into the chest. French's book has diagrams and autopsy photographs showing all that very clearly. Equivalent penetration if the upper arm hadn't been in the way would have been 12" to 16"--well within the spec that the FBI adopted after the shootout.

Interesting isn't it. The FBI aren't really trained gun fighters, but there's an assumption that they know what equipment is best for gun fighting.

 

[DR505]

Interesting isn't it. The FBI aren't really trained gun fighters, but there's an assumption that they know what equipment is best for gun fighting.

I am not sure what agency has “trained gunfighters” these days, other than perhaps Air Marshals. During the academy a FBI new agent trainee shoots roughly 4K rounds of service pistol, and perhaps 500 of carbine with a couple hundred shotgun thrown in. Not as many as I would prefer, but FAR more than what I trained with in my first police academy.

 

[AJC1]

What I don't get is they already had the solution in their hands. Change to 357, not spend millions to develop a 10mm to nuter it to 40. That was a huge waste of time and money.

 

[JohnKSa]

If you delve into the firefight, there was actually some decent rationale for going to autopistols--so they were not really looking at revolver rounds.

The FBI didn't develop the 10mm, it had been around for a few years before the 1986 firefight. What they did was determine that they could get it to meet their new spec with a lighter loading--a discovery that led to the invention of the .40S&W.

 

[Mn Fats]

Most of what was to learn was ignored. Being properly prepared was ignored. Tactics were ignored. Mindset was ignored. The guns and ammo were blamed.

I disagree with this. Because of this incident, this is right around the time Police departments switched over from the 38/357 to high cap polymers for sidearms and AR-15s for long guns.

 

[Archie]

I disagree with this. Because of this incident, this is right around the time Police departments switched over from the 38/357 to high cap polymers for sidearms and AR-15s for long guns.

Yes. It is around the time police firearms were changed. Which frankly is a fad. I do support the switch from shotguns to rifles, I find shotguns to be rather sloppy in use.
What also happened at the same time was that qualification standards were actually lowered. Required scores remained unchanged but the scoring zones were increased.
The demand for accurate fire has not increased, rather decreased over all. Too many political decision makers have taken the view that a greater number of missed shots are better than a fewer number of serious hits.
But you are free to disagree. I worked on two 'fronts' to insure that.

 

[WrongHanded]

I am not sure what agency has “trained gunfighters” these days, other than perhaps Air Marshals. During the academy a FBI new agent trainee shoots roughly 4K rounds of service pistol, and perhaps 500 of carbine with a couple hundred shotgun thrown in. Not as many as I would prefer, but FAR more than what I trained with in my first police academy.

I know what you mean, but in 1986 I think there were probably still some old ex-Border Patrol gunfighters hanging around who might have had something to add.

And as far as the FBI academy and 4K of pistol rounds goes, it sounds like a lot.....until you consider many of them have probably not spent much of any time shooting prior to that point. It's entirely possible some of them have never held a pistol before in their lives.