2 small guns vs. 1 big gun?

[David E]

Sometimes I put a Keltec .380 in my pocket for BUG duty. My primary is never a .380. I put it in the left pocket in case that's the hand that's free, but I carry it infrequently. When I do, it's because I want/need a second gun readily available for the wife while traveling.

 

[Backpacker33]

In my last LEO job our captain was the trainer, and he was fiendish. His scenarious taught the importance of keeping extra magazines available to either hand. He also set up scenarios that required us to go to the backup. The best one I remember he had us draw our duty arm in response to a lethal threat (FATS trainer) and then screamed at us to drop it, as though we fumbled. Think it can't happen? I've seen highly experienced LEOs drop their pistol while trying to make a fast draw under stress. Also, during weapon retention training, if the gun was a semi-auto with a magaziine disconnect, we were taught to eject the magazine thereby rendering the gun useless if it was taken away, and then draw the backup.

Soo, whenever possible I carry two. During one training scenario with live ammo, the captain put our guns and magazines in a barrel of water, about two feet below the surface. We had to retreive them, load and shoot on the clock. I jammed the magazine in my Sig, racked the slide and then smoothly ejected the magazine. During the debrief the captain patiently explained how much faster it would have been to pull the back up than scramble for another magazine.

Further, everyone from Civil War officers to 19th and 20th Century CE bandits to Jim Cirillo proved what Cirillo dubbed "The New York Reload" when under fire.

I train with either hand, just in case. However, I've been shot twice. Bled a lot, hurt real bad. Second time I was incapacitated. Neither time did even gun number one serve me. (First time, I didn't have a backup!) I practice, but have little illusion that I will be able to respond if shot. That said, there are many reports of gravely wounded people staying in the fight.

 

[TheProf]

Where are you going that you feel you need more than one handgun? I can see why a cop or LEO carries a backup because the propensity of him going to the dance is much more likely than most, but why an average citizen? I am not saying it's not nice to be able to carry two and one should be able to carry as many as he/she wants but honestly, who here has ever had to use a backup gun in a civilian setting?

1. In UNIFORM...an LEO is more likely to engage a bad guy. Out of uniform, I think that a civilian is more likely to be a victim than off- duty LEO. Why? The off-duty LEO gives off a "police officer" vibe...which criminals unconsciously detect. The way an off-duty LEO carries himself is different from the average civilian. They are seen as "hard targets". I believe when you compare the two groups (off-duty cops vs. civilians), civilians are more likely to be victimized. (Of course, if a BG recognizes a cop off-duty...well that's a different story.)

2. I don't wander into "bad" parts of town. Unfortunately, the criminal element has trouble staying on their part of town.

3. And since all mechanical devices can fail, having two guns is not a bad idea.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Where are you going that you feel you need more than one handgun?

Respectfully, this is not a favorite argument of mine. If I thought I was going someplace where I needed one firearm, I believe I'd opt to stay in that night and wash my hair in stead. Crap happens, else we wouldn't carry firearms at all (or spare tires or medical coverage).

Agreed, the odds of needing just one firearm are really small. The odds of needing a second are infinitesimal. But there are examples of such things happening.

 

[GRIZ22]

I would prefer a "large" gun and a smaller backup but there are some misconceptions being presented here.

1. "...in case of a malfunction..."

Nothing is 100%. That $5000 1911 will break eventually. When your "100%" reliable gun breaks down (hopefully) on the range it will be a wakeup.

2. "...trouble starts to brew..."

To leave is the best advice but not always possible.

3. It's SD, not combat. If you have to shoot, one, well aimed, shot is far more effective than spray and pray.


This is true and most gunfights are over in no more than 2 or 3 shots. I'm not an advocate of carrying 4 spare magazines (one reload per gun is my rule) but you may be caught in the "unusual situation". Drawing a second gun is faster than any reload.

4. "...since they are pocket carried..." Stupid place for an SD firearm. Pocket lint, dust, etc. can cause a cheap pistol to stop working.

Not the best place or most accessible but adequate. Lint, dust and other crap are taken care of by daily inspection. If you pocket carry use a pocket holster and carry nothing else in that pocket. Why are you carrying a cheap pistol anyway? There are some inexpensive guns that are very reliable.

5. "...If the primary arm is injured..." You're toast. Pretending to be able to shoot after being shot is a shooting game thing. Shock sets in fast.

All depends on your mindset and too many factors to make the blanket statement that "you're toast". There are too many documented incidents of people having even soon to be fatal wounds and still fighting back. Just to mention two extremes, in the FBI Miami shootout the round Platt took to his upper arm lodged in his chest. The autopsy report shows this round ripped his brachial artery and stopped short of his heart. This hit would kill Platt as it was but would take time to bleed him out. Before this happened he was killed by an "inadequate" 38 special hit. Col Roger Donlon (1st SF MOH winner) was gut shot during the fight he won the MOH. He stuffed the entry and exit wounds with pieces of a tee shirt and kept fighting. He survived.

6. He a trained, experienced, shooter?

I do believe in training and practice. However, as Jeff Cooper and others have said skill with firearms is only about 5% of gunfighting. This is supported by NYPD's findings. NYPD probably has the best method for investigating gunfights and a large enough sampling for validity. They have found no correlation exists between how well someone qualifies and how they do in a gunfight.

Ther is an often overlooked reason for carrying two guns. If I'm carrying two guns and you are with me and trained but unarmed and something happens; I can give you a gun and we have now made the BG's situation over twice as bad.

 

[Dr_2_B]

Griz, [pardon the hijack here]

What's Cooper attribute the other 95% to?

 

[GRIZ22]

What's Cooper attribute the other 95% to?

Mental conditioning and mindset. See his lecture on video "Mental Conditioning for Combat Shooting" (not sure if that's the correct title). Cooper doesn't claim to have invented it. Soldiers, fighter pilots, LEOs, and private citizens have done it years. Not so much your skill with the weapon but your determination to take on insurmontable odds and fight to win.

 

[Mr.Davis]

You forgot the most important tactical advantage of carrying two small guns versus one big one - DUAL WIELDING!

 

[7an]

J-frame akimbo FTW!

 

[NG VI]

Those guys in the dual-wielding poster look like they are Brazilian anti-gang fighters (I don't think 'cop' is really appropriate for them, they are more like full-on commandos), and if they are, then yes, they really are awesome.

 

[David E]

Drawing a second gun is faster than any reload.

Says who? The above statement assumes quite a bit. If the BUG is on the ankle, you're not getting it before I can reload my semi-auto. While some folks claim extraordinary time frames for drawing a BUG from the pocket, those claims fall apart if one has to draw it while moving or from an unusual position. (like, squatting behind cover making access to any pocket near impossible) Neither of these present much of a problem for me accessing my spare mag and completing the reload in 2 seconds or less.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

5. "...If the primary arm is injured..." You're toast. Pretending to be able to shoot after being shot is a shooting game thing. Shock sets in fast.

I, and many people who have actually been shot, wholly disagree. Giving up is the easist way to die in a gun fight. Even if you're shot, if you tell yourself you're still in the game, you have a much better chance on making in through in one piece.

 

[GRIZ22]

Says who? The above statement assumes quite a bit.

Okay let's draw the parameters. If the BUG is in an awkward position (pocket, ankle, belly band, etc) and you are squatting behind cover, drawing a backup is slower. If you magazine is rolling around in your pocket with your keys and change, the rounds fell out of the speedloader or speedstrip in your pocket, or if you're not really adept at reloading (as many are), the BUG in your ankle holster will be faster.

Put the BUG near the same location as your spare mag and tell me if you can't get lead on target faster.

If that spare mag is in your car down the street (search "who carries a reload"), a BUG in a full flap ankle holster is faster.

We can draw all kinds of parameters to make something faster or slower.

Drawing a second gun is faster than any reload.


I first heard that term from Jim Cirillo who knew more about actual gunfighting that nearly all the people on this forum. When he said it he didn't define conditions.

 

[GRIZ22]

I, and many people who have actually been shot, wholly disagree. Giving up is the easist way to die in a gun fight. Even if you're shot, if you tell yourself you're still in the game, you have a much better chance on making in through in one piece.


Thank you Ragnar from another who's been there done that.

I preface basically your same comment with "just because you're shot doesn't mean you're dead" when I cover this in a class.

 

[RJChapman]

Here is an excellent example of an armed citizen who was minding his own business and suddenly found himself in a life or death firefight. He did not have a second gun, nor a reload, but would have benefited from one or the other.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_186_31/ai_n27134440/

The reality is you never know what fate has in store for you. People die violent deaths every single day in this country. Those who face the world everyday prepared for the unexpected are more likely to survive to see another day than those who are unprepared. In our civilized society, the masses tend to be unprepared. Carrying one gun is prepared. Carrying two is doubly prepared. Those of you who chatise the prepared need to rethink your postions.

 

[wrs840]

There's always a 442 or LCP in my pocket if I have pants on. In most cases, I also have a full-sized .40S&W (business attire) or 45Colt (farm attire) on me too. I'm not really thinking of a "double-handguns" strategy, the small ones are just "minimums" that don't get left behind just because I'm "properly" armed...

Les

 

[nelson133]

I carry one bigger gun and 2 smaller. I fix high tech medical machines and I have learned that no matter how well maintained any machine will break eventually, and it will be at the worst possible time. Most of the modern trainers recommend at least one backup and I trust that they know more than your average anonymous internet poster.
If you are attacked, you will always be at a disadvantage, as the criminal has planned out his actions and you have to react to him. You may be blocked from reaching your main gun, you may be knocked to the ground. A back up may be faster to get to under those circumstances. Clint Smith says that when he does visualization exercises he imagines everything going wrong rather than everything going right. Seems like a good idea to me.
I believe that everything you carry should have the same action, for me that is double action with no external safety. I rotate my guns around, but the main gun is a M&P 40 compact or SP101 or something similar. The backups are small DA only revolvers, like a J frame and/or a small DA auto, like a P3-AT or LCP or such. All have close to the same trigger weight and all require just a trigger squeeze.

 

[David E]

Okay let's draw the parameters.

Ok, but let's be realistic.

I'm basing my comments on a several things: I carry a semi-auto. And that I do, in fact, carry a reload. I carry it on my belt in a mag pouch designed to hold that magazine.

Put the BUG near the same location as your spare mag and tell me if you can't get lead on target faster.

But where do most people carry their BUG ? Some may, indeed, carry it on the left side on the belt, but most will carry it in a pocket or ankle rig. Cops may carry their BUG on their belt as Cirillo did on his stakeouts, but when I was a uniformed cop, I carried my BUG in the straps of my vest.

We can draw all kinds of parameters to make something faster or slower.

Obviously, but again, let's keep it realistic.

Drawing a second gun is faster than any reload.

I first heard that term from Jim Cirillo who knew more about actual gunfighting that nearly all the people on this forum. When he said it he didn't define conditions.

I was fortunate enough to take a class from Jim and it was very enlightening. But he made the above comment when discussing reloading a REVOLVER, not a semi-auto. He used a Glock 21 for the class demos.

Is it possible to draw a second gun faster than reloading the primary? Of course, but it's not the absolute it once was.

 

[Backpacker33]

I think it really boils down to how one trains.

“Outdoor TV” has the “Impossible Shots” program Wednesday nights, where shooters like Bob Munden do things the rest of us cannot. They do it by practicing. One of our sons played oboe in Carnegie Hall. The joke among those who go there and those who want to, goes like this: “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Answer: Practice, practice, practice.”

Our LEO son can reload his department-issue Glock WAY faster than I ever could. Jerry Miculek reloads and SHOOTS revolvers faster than most people can just shoot a semi-auto.

It’s all about practice.

I’m still a fan of a second gun because any gun can malf. When it does, many of us are deeply wedded to “tap - rack - bang.” A friend of mine shoots Glocks in competition. In the middle of a stage it malfed and he did that. Still wouldn’t work. Did it again. Still no shoot. Dumped the mag, inserted new, back in business. Bad magazine.

If that happened to most us in a life-threatening situation, we would have no more ability or time to analyze the problem than he did, and he is a highly experienced competitor. Because he was in a match, not under fire, he could take the time while standing in place to do that. If under threat, we’d have to dive for cover. Reminder to self: bullets move faster than I do.

There was a shooting analyzed in detail by Ayoob (I think). An older, retired Marine was present for a holdup. He took cover in a spot that made it difficult to retrieve his handgun. He succeeded, and lived, but for me it emphasized having another gun available to the other hand.

For anyone carrying a semi-auto, I believe in always having a spare mag instantly available.

For a revolver, if carrying only one, I believe in carrying a speed strip for reload. This is not to argue with anyone who prefers a speed-loader. Just carry something. One of my acquaintances also always keeps a few loose rounds in his pocket. Not my way, but it’s a plan.
- Backpacker

 

[Kind of Blued]

My fastest draw with a timer with a full size 1911 Govt model, so far, from concealment using my KyTac IWB was a witnessed .74............how fast do you need to be ?

Preferably somewhere around -3 seconds.

 

[David E]

Is there an advantage to CC two small guns (pocket carry) vs. one big gun (IWB)?

1. Having a two is great...in case of a malfunction.

Choose quality, both in gun and ammo, then maintain it and practice with it and chances of malfunctions will be moot. Carrying tiny guns in pockets is not conducive to 100% reliability, due to pocket lint, etc.

2. One can place their hand on the gun covertly.... as trouble starts to brew (assuming escape is not available)

If trouble is brewing and escape is not available, then it's past time to be covert.

3. The number of shots available would be about the same (two 6+ 1s)(14 rounds) vs. one high cap pistol (about 15 rounds).

Maybe in theory, but let's see how fast you can shoot that 8th shot when you have to dip into your second pocket because the first 7 puny .380 loads didn't do the trick. And let's hope you've been practicing your weak hand only shooting. Me, I'll just have to pull the trigger again. Thinking that 14 rds of .380 launched from a 2.1" barrel divided into 2 separate guns is the same as a larger 9mm/.40/.45 is laughable.

4. More concealable...even if the shirt "rides up"... the guns do not show since they are pocket carried.

Maybe, but that's a minor point. Carrying in a good IWB isn't hard for me to hide and allows a faster draw than a mini-gun carried in a pocket.

5. If the primary arm is injured, the other hand can retrieve a weapon much faster.

Based on what ? Is my gun already out? If so, I can grab it with the off hand. If it's still holstered, I can draw it with my left.

6. You can also arm a friend...if need be. Two armed friends are better than one armed person.

The friends I would trust with a gun already brought their own.

What do you all think? I was thinking of carrying two LCPs.

I think you're trying to convince yourself that it's a grand idea, while overlooking the various shortcomings. Like the fact that two pocket guns don't extend your range, power or accuracy over ONE pocket gun, just your capacity.

I sometimes carry a .380 as a back up to a "real" gun, as it has merit in the backup role. I can't think of any likely situation where I'd draw it first, tho.

Take your pocket gun LCP an try making a headshot on a 15 yd target, or hit a target that's behind cover at the same distance. (scenario being the badguy is behind cover actively shooting at and killing your friends at a restaurant.) Me, I want an accurate gun in a caliber that'll be able to stop that badguy.

 

[RONSERESURPLUS]

Hello all, RON L here

I've seen a Lot of good and some Not so good comments in this thread in my opinion! I have carried as a CCW owner for years, I have caried aPrimary gun usually a larger Semi-Auto like a 1911A1 in 45 or a BHP or clone as main gun, but I do like the Idea of a Back up and have carried one from time to time, but not as a Had to have item! I'd rather carry an extra mag or two for the primary, But I now carry a Beretta M-21A in 22LR, it's smal enough, light enough and If i do my Job will put the shots on the paper! I prefer 45ACP, 9MM or a MIN of 9MM makarov, but a 22 as a Back up, I'm OK with as I know BOTH guns are Relable and I see the Back up as just a seconnd gun to have and hope to never need? Never have so far, but I like the idea of it and I carry it with me with my Wallet and keys and hardly know it's there, where as the 45 or larger auto I have to belt on and think more about! Good Holster, Right Clothes so consealment is not an issue most times a year!


RON

 

[GRIZ22]

Ok, but let's be realistic.

Obviously, but again, let's keep it realistic.


Come on the only unrealistic thing I said was "full flap ankle holster".

If the BUG is in an awkward position (pocket, ankle, belly band, etc) and you are squatting behind cover, drawing a backup is slower.

Here I agreed with you.

I was fortunate enough to take a class from Jim and it was very enlightening. But he made the above comment when discussing reloading a REVOLVER, not a semi-auto. He used a Glock 21 for the class demos.


I was fortunate to have met Jim when he was still with NYPD and knew him through his second career with U.S. Customs and in FLETC in GA. Added up I had several weeks of instruction from him (and a few beers after being on the range). If this is what he said in his class I have no reason to doubt you. I wasn't there. He usually used whatever most of the class had for his demos to show you didn't need a super race gun to perform well.

Is it possible to draw a second gun faster than reloading the primary?

Depends on a lot of factors as we both discussed above.

 

[David E]

Jim was a great guy. I made him a holster for his 2.5" Model 19 which he liked quite a bit. It accommodated his particular draw stroke and he said, "It's perfect!" as he made the first draw. Don't know how much he used it, tho. Sure miss him.

 

[NMGonzo]

Depends.

Most of the time I carry my Bersa because it out of the safe and small enough to carry with every clothing choice.

Another thing is most of the winter I am all buttoned up and unable to reach for anything bigger, so the Bersa goes in the coat pocket and disappears right there.

I shoot REALLY well with my 1911, but reaching for it under jacket and sweater versus "on hand" .380 in my coat pocket is a no brainer.