20 or 30 rounders for AR

[db_tanker]

I mix and match...I have mostly 30's but I have five 10 round mags for bench shooting...twenty 30 round mags for fun.

 

[Tortuga]

I knew people were going to take issue with my post, but I still remain unconvinced here.

Well, there is “proper” prone, and then what one may have to do, on uneven ground, and/or when cover is scant, and the other side is not cardboard or steel, and has loaded firearms.

The military has only uses 30 round magazines for their M16 variants and has since Vietnam (where they started issuing 30 rounders at the end of the war). I'm not exactly sure what point you're making here but, when it comes to fighting / training for wars, we went prone with 30 round mags just fine. There shouldn't be any condition when you're firing prone where the extra 2 inches of a 30 round mag should be getting in the way, or even making contact with the ground unless you absolutely want it to as an added point of contact. In my experience, most of the time we fired from a kneeling position from behind cover anyway.

Incorrect. Not all prone shooting is high power style leather jacket stuff. Trying to cover a big prairie dog town prone off a bipod on top of a hill, for instance, I much prefer 20s to 30s.

I'm fact, I prefer the general handling and clearance of 20s to 30s for most shooting. Although I have several times the number of 30s as I do 20s, the 20s get most of the use.

I don't understand how this would make sense because, if you're shooting off a bipod, your silhouette is even higher -- so you should have even more clearance off the ground. Even on a hill, you're literally talking about an extra 2-3 inches at most with modern magazines (except some of the smaller 5 rounders):



I mean clearly you guys have a right to do what you want but these few inches of clearance should not impede someone shooting from a prone position

 

[Gtscotty]

I knew people were going to take issue with my post, but I still remain unconvinced here.



The military has only uses 30 round magazines for their M16 variants and has since Vietnam (where they started issuing 30 rounders at the end of the war). I'm not exactly sure what point you're making here but, when it comes to fighting / training for wars, we went prone with 30 round mags just fine. There shouldn't be any condition when you're firing prone where the extra 2 inches of a 30 round mag should be getting in the way, or even making contact with the ground unless you absolutely want it to as an added point of contact with the ground or you aren't firing from a proper prone position. In my experience, most of the time we fired from a kneeling position from behind cover.




I don't understand how this would make sense because, if you're shooting off a bipod, your silhouette is even higher -- so you should have even more clearance off the ground. Even on a hill, you're literally talking about an extra 2-3 inches at most with modern magazines (except some of the smaller 5 rounders):

View attachment 952685

I mean clearly you guys have a right to do what you want but these few inches of clearance should not impede someone shooting from a prone position

It's two or three inches in a specific place that makes a difference to handing if you're trying to get relatively low on a bipod and shoot at varying distances. Whether the hill helps or hurts depends on exactly where you are on the crest. I'm not guessing on this, been there, done that a few times and know which one I prefer, give it a try if you don't believe me. It also goes without saying that 30s often get in the way when shooting on a bench, especially from bags.

Regardless, inferring that people who prefer 20s for prone shooting just don't know what they are doing is nonsense.

 

[If1HitU]

I have both, but put 18 and 28 rounds in my magazines. Old habits are hard to brake at my age.

 

[Ironicaintit]

Some of you guys take the opinions of others, entirely too seriously

I just said 30 rounders and prone could be funky, I didn’t say it couldn’t be done.

 

[Tortuga]

It's two or three inches in a specific place that makes a difference to handing if you're trying to get relatively low on a bipod and shoot at varying distances.

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but you're basically just dismissing my point without providing a counter argument. At this point, I'd really like to see a picture of someone shooting properly from a prone position where the 2-3 extra inches of magazine prevent them from doing it. In this case, we have a prone unsupported shooter:






I don't know how small your arms are but, unless they're 7 inches or shorter, that 2-3 extra inches of magazine shouldn't interfere with your prone position. That said, the distance, elevation, or curvature of the hill your shooting from doesn't make a difference at all from this prone position because your body is still in one straight line. Even if the hill is close to a straight drop, you're bracing the ground with your elbows so it doesn't make a difference.

I even picked someone in what is close to how Marines teach the prone position in order to illustrate that there is variance to stable prone positions that shouldn't interfere with your magazine. This is especially confusing to me because, again, a bipod should raise your silhouette.

Whether the hill helps or hurts depends on exactly where you are on the crest. I'm not guessing on this, been there, done that a few times and know which one I prefer, give it a try if you don't believe me. .

Oh believe me, I "gave it a try" when I was in the military for years (not shooting gophers or whatever you're talking about). I've done it probably in more geographical locations than you might have guessed, and I still do it several times a week to this day. I remain totally confused as to how you're shooting from a stable prone position and that extra 2- inches of a magazine "gets in the way" unless you're shooting from an unstable position.

It also goes without saying that 30s often get in the way when shooting on a bench, especially from bags.

.

How are you setting up your bags?! Assuming your bench is flat, they shouldn't be close enough to the magazine to make a difference.



I know this photo isn't on a bench, but that's irrelevant because it only takes like 2 or 3 bags to raise that rifle like a foot off of it.

Regardless, inferring that people who prefer 20s for prone shooting just don't know what they are doing is nonsense.

Well for starters, I didn't say people who "prefer 20s for prone shooting don't know what they're doing." What I said was someone who has a difficult time shooting prone with a 30 round mag don't know how to shoot prone and "you guys have a right to do what you want but these few inches of clearance should not impede someone shooting from a prone position." I stand by this particularly if the argument is that "the magazine gets in the way," which to me is almost inconceivable as to how this is happening unless you're not bracing the ground with your elbows or using a bipod that's way to small. To this point in the conversation I still remain totally unconvinced.

That said, if I misunderstood you and that's your preference that's fine. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're an inferior shooter because you prefer a 20 round mag. However, if you have this preference because the magazine is "getting in the way," I'm very confused as to how you're having this problem.

If you really want to shut me up, show me a picture of what you're doing and how this 30 round magazine gets in the way, because I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably not holding an AR-15 style rifle in a proper prone position if a 30 round mag is getting in the way.

 

[Bfh_auto]

I don't know how many standard mags I have. A 10 rounder lives in mine.
It makes life easier for me. I almost never need a follow up shot. If I need more than 10. I'm looking for a bigger gun.

 

[MistWolf]

...if you have this preference because the magazine is "getting in the way," I'm very confused as to how you're having this problem...

Who bloody well cares? Everyone is built differently. Guys talk about using a 30 rounder in the prone position as a monopod. I can't. 30 rounders are too short. Only think I can think of is the extra padding around my middle.... because... I wear a heavy coat when shooting... means I can't get low enough. Perhaps if I took my... heavy coat... off when shooting, I could get lower. But unfortunately I'm rather attached to my... heavy coat... and it could take awhile to give it up.

I also have long arms. To get low enough to use a 30 rounder as a monopod, I have to splay my elbows pretty far apart and it feels unnatural. I have to use the Magpul 40 rounders for a monopod.

I've also stacked bean bags high enough to get the 30 rounders off the bench. On the benches at my local shooting range, that was too tall to use the stool. I had to switch to 20 rounders. Just use a taller stool, you say. HA! The shooting stools were part of the bench and didn't adjust high enough.

What works for one shooter may not work for the next. I know guys that are perfectly happy using 30 rounders off the bench and as monopods in prone. Or had no problems with 30 rounders in prone. So, un-confuse yourself and just accept that what works for you, doesn't always work for others. Accept the fact that just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean everyone can make it work

 

[Chuck R.]

I also have long arms. To get low enough to use a 30 rounder as a monopod, I have to splay my elbows pretty far apart and it feels unnatural. I have to use the Magpul 40 rounders for a monopod.

Same here.

I can "Mono-Pod" with 30's, but it's pretty low for me depending on the TGT height in relation. Just about any time we're going long on a stage in the prone I switch out to a Pmag 40 rounder.

 

[Terry G]

I prefer the way the weapon handles with a twenty round magazine. It's just a personal thing though. I use thirty rounders too, but if I'm carrying it on a hike for example, I always have a twenty round loaded with 18 rounds in place. Yeah, me too.

 

[Tortuga]

Who bloody well cares? Everyone is built differently. Guys talk about using a 30 rounder in the prone position as a monopod. I can't. 30 rounders are too short. Only think I can think of is the extra padding around my middle.... because... I wear a heavy coat when shooting... means I can't get low enough. Perhaps if I took my... heavy coat... off when shooting, I could get lower. But unfortunately I'm rather attached to my... heavy coat... and it could take awhile to give it up.

I also have long arms. To get low enough to use a 30 rounder as a monopod, I have to splay my elbows pretty far apart and it feels unnatural. I have to use the Magpul 40 rounders for a monopod.

I've also stacked bean bags high enough to get the 30 rounders off the bench. On the benches at my local shooting range, that was too tall to use the stool. I had to switch to 20 rounders. Just use a taller stool, you say. HA! The shooting stools were part of the bench and didn't adjust high enough.

What works for one shooter may not work for the next. I know guys that are perfectly happy using 30 rounders off the bench and as monopods in prone. Or had no problems with 30 rounders in prone. So, un-confuse yourself and just accept that what works for you, doesn't always work for others. Accept the fact that just because it's not a problem for you doesn't mean everyone can make it work

Well firstly I think it's worth discussing because it's literally a discussion forum and it's relevant to the original topic (as to why some do not use a 30 round magazine), but apparently this is an issue where people are getting pretty defensive about it so maybe it was a mistake to bring it up.

Secondly, there's a difference between saying "I can't use a 30 round magazine because it gets in the way" and "I just prefer to shoot it this way because I don't want to take my jacket off." I think I've said like 3 times now that preferences are fine and people can shoot how they want, but the idea that the extra 3 inches (maximum) of magazine from a 30 round mag is why they cannot use one is most likely a result of not holding an AR-15 style rifle properly.

Everyone is built differently

The point is that it shouldn't matter how you're "built." Unless you're seriously physically disabled (which maybe some shooters might be) or have the proportions of a young child, Occam's Razor would dictate the most likely problem is people are just not holding their rifle correctly if they can't get proper clearance with a 30 rounder. If it's not your preference for your style of shooting that's totally, but that's a different argument from saying it can't be done.

I've also stacked bean bags high enough to get the 30 rounders off the bench. On the benches at my local shooting range, that was too tall to use the stool.

So your stools are adjustable, but are still so low that you can't elevate your rifle 5 inches off the bench with sandbags to clear the bench? That really sounds fishy to me because it should only take like 3 bags. Again, your preferences are yours and I'm not debating what you like, but that sound like a pretty odd setup.

Ladies and gentleman, this is not a hill I'm willing to die on and I'm not attempting to derail the thread. People can shoot how they want and preferences are fine, but I stand by my original point that the 2 - 3 inch difference between a 20 and 30 round should not prevent the shooter from being able to shoot prone unless they're not holding the rifle properly.

 

[Dibbs]

I also prefer 20s. 30s are OK, just a little bulky and heavy.
Especially with a purpose built lighter rifle.

 

[Gtscotty]

I'm not trying to start an argument here, but you're basically just dismissing my point without providing a counter argument. At this point, I'd really like to see a picture of someone shooting properly from a prone position where the 2-3 extra inches of magazine prevent them from doing it. In this case, we have a prone unsupported shooter:



View attachment 952722


I don't know how small your arms are but, unless they're 7 inches or shorter, that 2-3 extra inches of magazine shouldn't interfere with your prone position. That said, the distance, elevation, or curvature of the hill your shooting from doesn't make a difference at all from this prone position because your body is still in one straight line. Even if the hill is close to a straight drop, you're bracing the ground with your elbows so it doesn't make a difference.

I even picked someone in what is close to how Marines teach the prone position in order to illustrate that there is variance to stable prone positions that shouldn't interfere with your magazine. This is especially confusing to me because, again, a bipod should raise your silhouette.





Oh believe me, I "gave it a try" when I was in the military for years (not shooting gophers or whatever you're talking about). I've done it probably in more geographical locations than you might have guessed, and I still do it several times a week to this day. I remain totally confused as to how you're shooting from a stable prone position and that extra 2- inches of a magazine "gets in the way" unless you're shooting from an unstable position.

.

How are you setting up your bags?! Assuming your bench is flat, they shouldn't be close enough to the magazine to make a difference.

View attachment 952724

I know this photo isn't on a bench, but that's irrelevant because it only takes like 2 or 3 bags to raise that rifle like a foot off of it.



Well for starters, I didn't say people who "prefer 20s for prone shooting don't know what they're doing." What I said was someone who has a difficult time shooting prone with a 30 round mag don't know how to shoot prone and "you guys have a right to do what you want but these few inches of clearance should not impede someone shooting from a prone position." I stand by this particularly if the argument is that "the magazine gets in the way," which to me is almost inconceivable as to how this is happening unless you're not bracing the ground with your elbows or using a bipod that's way to small. To this point in the conversation I still remain totally unconvinced.

That said, if I misunderstood you and that's your preference that's fine. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that you're an inferior shooter because you prefer a 20 round mag. However, if you have this preference because the magazine is "getting in the way," I'm very confused as to how you're having this problem.

If you really want to shut me up, show me a picture of what you're doing and how this 30 round magazine gets in the way, because I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts you're probably not holding an AR-15 style rifle in a proper prone position if a 30 round mag is getting in the way.

This is a really bizarre thing for you to get wrapped around the axle about, also, where all the .gov has sent you is not remotely germaine to this discussion. But, regardless, I was specifically referring to shooting prone with a bipod and you posted drawings of soldiers shooting unsupported prone and off of stacks of literal sandbags to make your point? I think you're confused about what I was saying.

Here's a photo I found on my phone:

That's one of the gen1 straight 20rd P-mags, shorter even than the current curved gen3 20s. With the 30rd, clearance is a problem and restricts elevation movement. In ground clutter/sage brush, it's in unnecessary nuisance, and I prefer 20s.

Here's a bag setup I often use for accuracy testing and load development, including on some of my ARs. These are very standard/common shooting bags front (Caldwell) and rear (Tab gear) that let you get a nice, stable position low to the bench.
A 30 rd mag will not fit when using these bags or any of the multitude like them out there. 20s in my 5.56 ARs and 10-15s in my Grendel fit fine with no downsides, so I prefer them. I don't know what you're talking about with stacking three bags? I've never seen that and it doesn't sound like a great idea if your goal is to build a stable shooting position.

Also, where you're located on a hill top quite obviously has an impact on the clearance between the magwell and the ground. If the bipod is on the crest and your body is laying slightly down hill there's more clearance. If your bipod is over the crest and you're shooting level, the magwell will have less clearance off the ground and whatever is on the ground. Either way I prefer to use 20s most of the time to maximize my clearance and maneuverability.

I'm pretty sure you just want to argue, but there's my explanation of my preferences and reasons anyway. I've wasted about as much time on you as I intend to, so don't feel like you have to respond.

 

[mavracer]

I use 10s l, 20s and 30s depending on application. I use metal GI for 5.56 .224 Valk and 450 BM and p mags for 300 BO.

 

[Robert]

Use what works for you and allow that it might be different for other people. I've never understood why we get so wrapped up in what other people use or do. If it's not illegal, unethical, or immoral does it really matter? No. It doesn't.