I have a Remington 241 Speedmaster from 1937 in .22LR. I was shooting 40gr Thunderbolt bullets and it cannot group. The bore looks good and is all mechanically sound. Is it just this type of cartridge? How should I go about figuring out what will work best? Since it cannot group, my first thought is the bullets are not sized correctly for the bore. Any ideas or help would be much appreciated.
.22 Rifle Accuracy
- Thread starter Chief TC
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DM~
Member
I would thoroughly clean the bore and THEN try different brands of ammo in it,
DM
DM
redneck2
Member
Thunderbolt ammo has been notoriously inaccurate in the past. If it were me, as noted I’d probably very carefully clean it, then shoot probably at least ten rounds to get the barrel seasoned, then start shooting for groups. A better ammo that’s not particularly expensive would be Federal Auto Match or CCI standard velocity. Those would be my choice
If you have a scope you’d obviously want to check the scope itself and mounts
If you have a scope you’d obviously want to check the scope itself and mounts
I have thoroughly cleaned it and no leading or copper. And I see no evidence of pitting. Again, a good looking bore. I will try to get some different brands in small quantities if I can. The Rem 241 is a semi auto gallery gun, so I don't expect it to be super accurate but it currently groups (if you can even call it that) in total trainwreck pattern of around 5 MOA at 100.
redneck2
Member
Member livelife did a very extensive thread on tests of many different brands of ammo. That would probably be a good starting point.
d2wing
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100 yards is pretty far for a gun meant to shoot just a few yards. Especially with bad ammo. Also a carbon ring ahead of the chamber is common in old guns. Another possibility is that thousands of 22 shorts may have been shot in a 22 LR chamber leaving deposits. I have a 1940's Winchester 74 that shoots really well. But I don't take to 100 yards.
Varminterror
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Lots of fish in the sea, pick different ammo. Thunderbolts are commonly referred to "thunder turds" in some circles...
Varminterror
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It's a 22LR, so the cartridge does not struggle with 100yrds. The Speedmaster's had the luxury of relatively fine sights for their class, so grouping well with these rifles was and is quite straight forward - assuming a guy could tune their barrel tension well (a little more reliable design, less apt to get mis-adjusted, than their kindred SA-22's). Not shooting well with rot-gut ammo which rarely shoots well in any rifle isn't a discredit to the 241, nor the 22LR cartridge. 100yrds is just a warm up for these.
jdsingleshot
Member
Best I've ever done with my peep-sighted Rem 510 is about 3" at 100 yards from sandbags. OTOH, I had a friend who could hit the cap from a quart oil container at 100 yards with a TC contender with a 36X scope on it... Your problem is probably the ammo, and possibly sighting issues.
OK, definitely learning a little and need to manage expectations. Full disclosure - I am shooting open sights which I know is the lowest level of sighting but I am pretty good with open sights up to 100yds. I can group 3 MOA at 100yds with my 357 carbine - benchrest. Of course, if I added aperture sights or a scope, the grouping would be even better. I think because there was no "grouping pattern" and fliers, the ammo is certainly an issue but now I need to redo this experiment at 50yds. Thanks everyone.
Out of Thunder Duds? Correct.
At least try some Aguila standard velocity, or Blazer, or CCI-SV (standard velocity)
Or even better, some match ammo to match up with a fine old gun.
Try some things and see what it likes
New CZ Varmint .22 LR
I picked this up yesterday at the FFLs. Picked up a brick of CCI-SV on the way home. I shot that, SK Standard Plus, Lapua Center X & Lapua Long Range through it today. Bottom line is it shoots very well, and showed a preference for Center X. SK Standard + was very close to the CC-SV speeds and...
www.thehighroad.org
5 MOA at 100 Yards with .22 LR Thunderbolt sounds really good to me. Other ammo will probably outperform this. The Thunderbolt is dirty as well and will gum up and action much faster than other ammo. I only use it in manual actions, mostly revolvers.
See if there is a carbon ring just in front of the chamber. They can be hard to see and remove. Sometimes need to work with a brush. Clean the bore again. Check the crown for damage.
Get some real ammo. It does not need to be match ammo, but, does need to be a better quality than thunder bolts. I wouldn’t even shoot them when I was a kid 50 years ago.
Standard velocity ( under the speed of sound) will likely give far better groups at 100 yards. Hi velocity, around 1250, drops below the speed of sound at way Under 100 yards. This causes quite a bit of turbulence affecting accuracy. My Kimber 82 will not do better than 3 inches with CCI mini mags. However any standard ammo I have tried is less than 2 inches if the wind is calm.
Get some real ammo. It does not need to be match ammo, but, does need to be a better quality than thunder bolts. I wouldn’t even shoot them when I was a kid 50 years ago.
Standard velocity ( under the speed of sound) will likely give far better groups at 100 yards. Hi velocity, around 1250, drops below the speed of sound at way Under 100 yards. This causes quite a bit of turbulence affecting accuracy. My Kimber 82 will not do better than 3 inches with CCI mini mags. However any standard ammo I have tried is less than 2 inches if the wind is calm.
.38 Special
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A nearly hundred year old rifle, with iron sights, and some of the worst ammunition ever made? I am deeply impressed with 5 MOA!
I agree with the others here. Clean the barrel (yes, again - .22 ammunition can be jealous, and if it discovers you tried a different brand first, it may take forever to settle down), then select decent-quality standard velocity stuff - not only is this generally better for long-range work, it will be far kinder to your ancient semi-auto - season the bore with it, and then get to work.
I agree with the others here. Clean the barrel (yes, again - .22 ammunition can be jealous, and if it discovers you tried a different brand first, it may take forever to settle down), then select decent-quality standard velocity stuff - not only is this generally better for long-range work, it will be far kinder to your ancient semi-auto - season the bore with it, and then get to work.
caribou
Member
100 yards is decent shooting, for a .22lr, but about max for decent .22lr. I like Remington .22lR, but not the Thunderbolts. 1 in 5 is a dud in cold weather.
The golden 40 grain solids match my sights, and go off most all the time, so I stick with them.
Decent ammo is one of the 3 things you need for good shooting; skills, rifle, ammo.
Get a box of each various .22lr available to you and see what improves your groups.
The golden 40 grain solids match my sights, and go off most all the time, so I stick with them.
Decent ammo is one of the 3 things you need for good shooting; skills, rifle, ammo.
Get a box of each various .22lr available to you and see what improves your groups.
It takes a lot of work to be a good shot with a 22lr. One hundred yards is particularly stressing. Unless you are shooting good ammunition your groups will be poor. I can't define poor with standard, over the counter blasting ammunition, as I don't shoot it. Good groups are like these, fired by Joe Farmer at the Western Wildcat.
Joe was Senior US National Champion, and he was amazing. No doubt the shots out of the X ring are due to wind pickups and let ups.
Even with good 22lr ammunition, to have consistent grouping you must be a good wind reader, and conditions have to be consistent enough to deduce patterns. The good wind readers read the wind like braille. They combine multiple datapoints and conditions in their head, and figure out, what is "their condition". One National Champ told me "Pick your condition and shoot in it". A 22lr bullet has all the ballistic properties of a spit wad. It is amazing to me to see a flag flip as I break the trigger, and see how far the bullet moves from center. Very frustrating too, wind is chaotic, there is actually, no pattern to the wind, other than the one you assume is there.
Competitions put up flags between the shooter and target, so shooters can have an idea of what is going on down range. Reading flags, reading mirage, is a mystic art, of which, I am very limited. The good wind wizards see things I don't see, and shoot better for it.
Because of the wind sensitivity of 22lr's, unless you are shooting in a wind tunnel, you really don't know the ultimate performance of your ammunition.
Old rifles can shoot very well indeed. This Rem M37 was made in 1941, has a good barrel,
and in fact, appears to have been hand selected at Remington by a period shooting celebrity.
I was high shooter at the 100 yard stage, shooting two 20 shot targets, prone, with a sling, using that Lyman Super scope.
The basic problem these old rifles have, for competition shooting, is that the Army set the rules for the day, and they wanted shooters to shoot something that was as close to a service rifle as possible. Therefore the ergonometrics are closer to an oar, than a rifle stock. The Army finally backed off after their teams were being consistently whacked by Europeans and Soviets post WW2 in International Shooting. Those foreigners were cheating by using comfortable rifle stocks with lots of adjustments, and not adaptable for attaching a bayonet to the barrel!
Pointy sticks had to be pried from the hands of troglodyte infantry before they would grasp stone tipped spears. And for as long as they lived, retired troglodyte NCO's would claim that stone tipped spears were never as good as their old pointy sticks.
Joe was Senior US National Champion, and he was amazing. No doubt the shots out of the X ring are due to wind pickups and let ups.
Even with good 22lr ammunition, to have consistent grouping you must be a good wind reader, and conditions have to be consistent enough to deduce patterns. The good wind readers read the wind like braille. They combine multiple datapoints and conditions in their head, and figure out, what is "their condition". One National Champ told me "Pick your condition and shoot in it". A 22lr bullet has all the ballistic properties of a spit wad. It is amazing to me to see a flag flip as I break the trigger, and see how far the bullet moves from center. Very frustrating too, wind is chaotic, there is actually, no pattern to the wind, other than the one you assume is there.
Competitions put up flags between the shooter and target, so shooters can have an idea of what is going on down range. Reading flags, reading mirage, is a mystic art, of which, I am very limited. The good wind wizards see things I don't see, and shoot better for it.
Because of the wind sensitivity of 22lr's, unless you are shooting in a wind tunnel, you really don't know the ultimate performance of your ammunition.
Old rifles can shoot very well indeed. This Rem M37 was made in 1941, has a good barrel,
and in fact, appears to have been hand selected at Remington by a period shooting celebrity.
I was high shooter at the 100 yard stage, shooting two 20 shot targets, prone, with a sling, using that Lyman Super scope.
The basic problem these old rifles have, for competition shooting, is that the Army set the rules for the day, and they wanted shooters to shoot something that was as close to a service rifle as possible. Therefore the ergonometrics are closer to an oar, than a rifle stock. The Army finally backed off after their teams were being consistently whacked by Europeans and Soviets post WW2 in International Shooting. Those foreigners were cheating by using comfortable rifle stocks with lots of adjustments, and not adaptable for attaching a bayonet to the barrel!
Pointy sticks had to be pried from the hands of troglodyte infantry before they would grasp stone tipped spears. And for as long as they lived, retired troglodyte NCO's would claim that stone tipped spears were never as good as their old pointy sticks.
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Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Whenever I get a new or new to me .22 regardless of whether it’s a rifle, pistol or revolver I test it with 15-20 different .22 Long Rifle cartridge offerings by several manufacturers. You have to find the ammo the gun likes. Just because it’s crap ammo or the best money can buy matters not to the gun. Rimfire guns like what they like.
Regarding Thunderbolt ammo. I have a Ruger 10/22 that is very accurate with that ammo. This same 10/22 patterns, not groups with the more expensive Match ammunition.
Regarding Thunderbolt ammo. I have a Ruger 10/22 that is very accurate with that ammo. This same 10/22 patterns, not groups with the more expensive Match ammunition.
Wow! Really great info everyone. Much appreciated. I will clean again and inspect thoroughly as everyone suggested. I will also start with CCI 22LR standard velocity and see how it does at 50 and 100 yds. I appreciate all the responses but I always have to give a special shout out to Slamfire for his detailed explanations.
LiveLife
Member
In my most recent testing with 47 brands/weights/lots of 22LR comparison by lot #s, Thunderbolt (Lot: E18HC1236) produced around 3/4" at 50 yards (So while technically 1.5" groups are expected at 100 yards, more realistically I have seen 2"+ groups at 100 yards) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...nition-comparison.908102/page-2#post-12812234
Aguila 40 gr CPRN was used as reference ammunition at the beginning and end of targets and as you can see, produced tight single group at the end.
I have old lot from 2019 (E18HC1236) and new lot from 2022-23 (E28WB1234) and as soon as rainy season is over, plan to restart the 47 ammunition comparison as I realized thread protector had come loose towards the end of second target.
Yes. During my 11,000+ round comparison testing, CCI SV consistently produced 1/2"-3/4" groups and Aguila 40 gr CPRN 3/4"-1" groups at 50 yards out of factory 10/22 18.5" barrel. Below are groups shot with T/CR22 and KSA bull barrel - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...22lr-on-the-cheap.898035/page-2#post-12180149
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Slamfire:
Even with good 22lr ammunition, to have consistent grouping you must be a good wind reader, and conditions have to be consistent enough to deduce patterns. The good wind readers read the wind like braille. They combine multiple datapoints and conditions in their head, and figure out, what is "their condition". One National Champ told me "Pick your condition and shoot in it". A 22lr bullet has all the ballistic properties of a spit wad. It is amazing to me to see a flag flip as I break the trigger, and see how far the bullet moves from center. Very frustrating too, wind is chaotic, there is actually, no pattern to the wind, other than the one you assume is there.
Competitions put up flags between the shooter and target, so shooters can have an idea of what is going on down range. Reading flags, reading mirage, is a mystic art, of which, I am very limited. The good wind wizards see things I don't see, and shoot better for it.
_______________________________________
Thanks for bringing up wind reading. Just read an article on that in BP Cartridge Magazine and shooting in BPCR competitions, there is an important wind reading component and "shooting in the condition" Amazing how fast the human brain can work when it has the ability to process the data.
Even with good 22lr ammunition, to have consistent grouping you must be a good wind reader, and conditions have to be consistent enough to deduce patterns. The good wind readers read the wind like braille. They combine multiple datapoints and conditions in their head, and figure out, what is "their condition". One National Champ told me "Pick your condition and shoot in it". A 22lr bullet has all the ballistic properties of a spit wad. It is amazing to me to see a flag flip as I break the trigger, and see how far the bullet moves from center. Very frustrating too, wind is chaotic, there is actually, no pattern to the wind, other than the one you assume is there.
Competitions put up flags between the shooter and target, so shooters can have an idea of what is going on down range. Reading flags, reading mirage, is a mystic art, of which, I am very limited. The good wind wizards see things I don't see, and shoot better for it.
_______________________________________
Thanks for bringing up wind reading. Just read an article on that in BP Cartridge Magazine and shooting in BPCR competitions, there is an important wind reading component and "shooting in the condition" Amazing how fast the human brain can work when it has the ability to process the data.
d2wing
Member
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,431
Another thing is the open sights. When I was a young man, I was pretty good with them if I remember right. But now it seems the light, my ability to focus and just about anything makes it really hard to shoot them well especially at longer ranges. It may not be a problem for you but probably a factor. The only way that I get one MOA at 100 yards is using a real Target rifle, a good high power scope, top match ammo, and get lucky with a 22 LR. Some guys suppose can do it routinely but I am not one of them. 1 1/2 MOA is good for me.
PistoleroWadcutterGANG
Member
Try some SK Biathlon sport. just a smidge faster velocity above SV. It works very well in Bergara's and most of my Vintage match 22's from the long barrel periods 60's / 70's
Riomouse911
Member
Looks like you are on the right path @Chief TC, these guys have a ton of real world range time behind them and they like to help others out with answers to questions like yours.
One thing I have figured out from others, as well as my own experience having ten different .22 LR rifles and sixteen .22 LR handguns in the safes; each .22 LR is its own beast. Almost every gun I have shoots best with something different than the others, so taking a bit of time and a variety of ammo will narrow down the few that will make that Remington shine brightest for you.
But, ammo that is a consistent good performer will make it easier to find the best. I stay away from bulk pack ammo when trying to find the best stuff, it just isn’t at a level where target-specific ammo is.
CCI Standard Velocity is a good starting point, and CCI Green Tag is a great starting target load. SK, Eley, RWS, Lapua and a few others are higher up on the ammo quality totem pole in shot to shot consistency, accuracy and (naturally) price. Those rounds really can wring out the very best a match gun can do (if the shooter does his part.) But, top-tier ammo will get spendy fast, and I doubt you will see a huge improvement in accuracy in your non-match specific rifle.
With your gun I would start where you are with the CCI SV, and maybe even try Norma TAC-22 target velocity, Federal Gold Medal Target or similar loads. They are not hard on older guns and are much, much more affordable than the SK-Eley-Lapua stuff.
Let us know how it does with the other ammo you try.
Stay safe.
One thing I have figured out from others, as well as my own experience having ten different .22 LR rifles and sixteen .22 LR handguns in the safes; each .22 LR is its own beast. Almost every gun I have shoots best with something different than the others, so taking a bit of time and a variety of ammo will narrow down the few that will make that Remington shine brightest for you.
But, ammo that is a consistent good performer will make it easier to find the best. I stay away from bulk pack ammo when trying to find the best stuff, it just isn’t at a level where target-specific ammo is.
CCI Standard Velocity is a good starting point, and CCI Green Tag is a great starting target load. SK, Eley, RWS, Lapua and a few others are higher up on the ammo quality totem pole in shot to shot consistency, accuracy and (naturally) price. Those rounds really can wring out the very best a match gun can do (if the shooter does his part.) But, top-tier ammo will get spendy fast, and I doubt you will see a huge improvement in accuracy in your non-match specific rifle.
With your gun I would start where you are with the CCI SV, and maybe even try Norma TAC-22 target velocity, Federal Gold Medal Target or similar loads. They are not hard on older guns and are much, much more affordable than the SK-Eley-Lapua stuff.
Let us know how it does with the other ammo you try.
Stay safe.
Thanks Riomouse for all the brand recommendations. I will defintely take this on as a project to figure out what works best. I have never focused on shooting .22s as I reload BP and 30-06 mostly for BPCR and mil matches, so this was a good learning event for me. It is a fun little gun and I do follow the Whelen quote of "only accurate guns are interesting." I think this one can perform well with the right stuff. Also, I have been reading about how a .22 rifle can help BPCR shooters with technique and wind reading, so trying to figure that out too. Thanks.
