22 rim fire or 6.5 Creedmoor?

[horsemen61]

Ok guys so my friend is trying to get into shooting more accurately he is down to either a 22 rimefire bolt action rifle vs a savage Model 10 6.5 creedmoor he reloads and claims he can get components quite a bit easier than he can 22 LR he has 1,000 bucks to spend on rifle scope and bipod he can stretch that a hair if he had to so what would you tell him?

 

[Varminterror]

If he just wants to shoot small groups for high precision, tell him to pick up a Win 52, a case of Eley black, and start shooting indoor smallbore. The X isn't a ring, it's a dot, about the size of a dot you'd make if you held a mechanical pencil straight up and down and just dropped it to bounce on a piece of paper.

If he wants to get really good at making wind calls and shooting targets at 300yrds, get a 22LR rifle, maybe a CZ 455 American this time.

If he wants to shoot at 600-1,000yrds regularly, then tell him to get a 6.5creedmoor. Plan on rebarreling every year.

Poor resistance to wind and poor aerodynamics make "mid range" with a 22LR feel much like "Extreme Long Range" with a high BC centerfire round. Comparing the two might often be called "apples and oranges," but frankly, it's more like "apples and tire-irons." It's SO extremely different.

 

[horsemen61]

Thank you for the response varminterror
I have spoke with him and yes it looks like it will be either the CZ 455 or a savage 10 he doesn't have a precise rifle right now he has a tikka T3 lite he is working with but the light weight makes it difficult to make it a target rifle he wants to shoot as good as can learn to read the wind right now access is available to 300 yards that's max so he is definitely wanting to get better

 

[Newtosavage]

If I were looking for a training rifle for 300 yards, I'd probably get a .223 for cheap ammo, and some challenge in reading drift at that distance. Just an idea.

I was looking for an inexpensive "range gun" this year, and I picked up a .17 HMR on sale. It's been fun, but 200 is about the max I can expect to get out of a shot what I put into it. If I had it to do over, I may have instead gotten a bolt action .223. No shortage of brass laying all over my range every time I go too.

 

[Bart B.]

For a 22 target rifle that'll shoot better than a used Winchester 52D (with unknown accurate barrel life remaining) get a new Anschutz 1903 for a few hundred bucks less.

 

[Llama Bob]

This is one of those cases where you're going to have to make up your mind - centerfire or rimfire? I find that .22 trainers with scopes which allow you to dial drop are more useful practice simply because of the reduced ammo cost, and the fact that you only need a 200y range to get to interesting "long range" shooting distances.

However, if your goal is to be good at shooting centerfire, then at some point you will have to practice on a centerfire.

I'm not a huge fan of the CZ 455 - mine has been somewhat problematic. I would probably look at a 10/22 instead.

 

[horsemen61]

Thank you all for the replies I am not sure what he will do but if I had to guess I'd say he gets the 6.5 creedmoor

 

[CraigC]

Plan on rebarreling every year.

That's a gross exaggeration.

 

[Varminterror]

That's a gross exaggeration.

Hasn't been for me... Bought an RPR in 6.5 to test it out last year, already opening it up at 2,200. If a guy is learning and wants to be any degree of consistency at ELR or had any designs on competition with the rig, I don't know how he'd really accomplish it running less than 100 a month.

If he has other rifles to practice with, he'll spread his shots around and barrels live more years, but they don't really live more shots. If he's just looking for a hunting rifle or satisfied hitting one in twenty shots at 1,000yrds on a 24" gong and feeling good about running 3 or 4 boxes a year through it, great, it'll last forever. If he's looking to shoot long range, then rebarreling once a year or more isn't any kind of gross exaggeration.

Consider this - the top 100 in the PRS last year ran 4,000-6,000 average shots per year. That's 2-3 barrels. Most guys trying to leg out in CMP will run a barrel per season. Shoot any volume of benchrest matches and you'll typically push over a barrel once a season too. We burn barrels, even with a relatively barrel friendly cartridge like the feeble 6.5 creedmoor.

 

[Bart B.]

When the 6.5-308 was first used in high power match rifles, late 1990's, top ranked folks got about 2000 round barrel lives. Today, it's known as the 260 Remington. Same folks got 1500 with the 243 Winchester. 7-08's got 2500.

 

[tuj]

If you want to learn to shoot accurately, 22lr small bore competition is a great way to learn. I shoot small bore benchrest and small bore 3-position. Both are great for learning your rifle-craft. The other thing is that you don't need to spend the money to get into reloading (although ultimately that will save you in the long run) because you can buy Eley or Lapua match-quality 22lr ammo. That saves you from experimenting with loads, although you will want to experiment with lots and speeds when you get to the extreme edge of accurate like benchrest.

IMHO, its just as hard if not harder to shoot a 250 on a USBR target at 50yds than it is to shoot well at 350 with 6.5.

 

[viking499]

Thank you for the response varminterror
I have spoke with him and yes it looks like it will be either the CZ 455 or a savage 10 he doesn't have a precise rifle right now he has a tikka T3 lite he is working with but the light weight makes it difficult to make it a target rifle he wants to shoot as good as can learn to read the wind right now access is available to 300 yards that's max so he is definitely wanting to get better

What caliber is his Tikka? Maybe he just needs to swap out the factory stock for a Boyd's or something else to add a little weight.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

I dabble in .22 benchrest. It is tough. This is my unmolested 40x.

 

[mjsdwash]

I would tell him to get a Savage MK2, and a very good scope, or a cz455, and a good scope. But thats just me. If he can honestly say either of those rifles are holding him back, than by all means, go nuts with a 6.5. (I just traded my .22 for a 9mm because after 4 years, loading 9 is still cheaper than buying .22, and im not going to stalk online or walmart like its a safari, but if he's shooting for accuracy, the high end stuff is available, and much cheaper that reloading a 6.5. LGS's charge around 10c-12c/rd for bulk 22 around here, like thunderbolt or blazer)

 

[BrocLuno]

Interesting conundrum... When I wanted to get accurate, I bought a gently used Remington 513T all set up as a three position rifle. It came with very precise iron sights. I learned a lot with that rifle and had about as much in it as I had in ammo when I went slightly bigger. I did learn hold, and breathing, calmness and concentration. The rifle to this day can shoot better than I can. But I learned.

I went to 22-250 to reach out and see what that was like. The differences were/are things like mirage, heat waves, wind doing different things over the course of the bullets flight. Those things you do not learn with a 22LR. The stuff you did learn with the 22 still applies, and then some. The 22 is a demanding round beyond 50 ft...

I agree with Newtosavage about 223. If I were just starting to really concentrate on shooting well. I'd go that way. I dunno what platform I'd choose ... But the cost is low enough, the reach is good. There are plenty rifles out there that will shoot sub-MOA all day with the right load.

You could start at just 100 yd with bulk ammo and get it down to inch'ish groups most days. Then find the "preferred ammo" for that barrel and shrink the groups some more. But to do either of these, you (he) will have to be getting on top of his game. And that is what this is all about

And his Tikka is already a 1 MOA rifle with the right loads. As he learns with his less recoil driven platform, he will get better with the Tikka

I agree that the light weight stock on the Tikka feels sort of flexy flier and it does not inspire. It's light and that is what it was meant for - carrying.

I was so close to getting one in 308 and I had a scheme to use Marine hull foam injected to stiffen the stock and re-install w/o adding more than a few ounces, but family responsibilities turned me away from that venture. I still think there are ways to tune the Tikka light-weight stock to make it more sure footed w/o adding much ...

 

[The_Next_Generation]

I can almost guarantee that there is a place to shoot beyond 300yds within a 2 hour drive of your friend. Many people seem completely unaware that shooting is legal in National Forests, and that said forests typically have large clear cuts or other spaces suitable for long range shooting. Google Maps is your best friend.

Now, if you live on the East coast or somewhere as densly populated as that, you might be up the proverbial creek.

For shooting inside 300 yards, I'd go for the 22. Maybe a 17hmr since ammo is easier to find and very accurate.

If he already has a Tikka, it might be more financially efficient to put it in a better stock and see what happens. Also, a reliable scope is a must if he really wants to get into the long range game. The SWFA 10x mil/mil models get the job done for $300. Anything else in that price range is pretty much useless for accurate long range shooting.

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, nothing teaches basic marksmanship like a good .22LR. If he doesn't have the basics, long range shooting with the 6.5 will only be frustrating. I would highly recommend attending an Appleseed event.

Consider this - the top 100 in the PRS last year ran 4,000-6,000 average shots per year. That's 2-3 barrels.

Who said anything about PRS?

 

[macgrumpy]

Who said anything about PRS?

Varminterror did, he was simply trying to tell the OP that if his friend intends to take his shooting to the extreme, long range competition shooting, then he should expect to change barrels quite often.

 

[kimberkid]

Never mind ... since a post can't be deleted by the poster, I should have read the entire thread before posting

 

[CoalTrain49]

If I were looking for a training rifle for 300 yards, I'd probably get a .223 for cheap ammo, and some challenge in reading drift at that distance. Just an idea.

I was looking for an inexpensive "range gun" this year, and I picked up a .17 HMR on sale. It's been fun, but 200 is about the max I can expect to get out of a shot what I put into it. If I had it to do over, I may have instead gotten a bolt action .223. No shortage of brass laying all over my range every time I go too.

That's what I did.

Found the cheapest new .223 bolt I could and use range brass. If you reload you are under 0.20/rd. Creedmoor brass is going to drive your cost up and bullets are x2. When the barrel gets shot out I'll go with a heavier barrel and a Boyds stock. Cheap thrills while it lasts. Expect to spend at least 1K on CF ammo the first year if you shoot every week.

 

[CoalTrain49]

That's a gross exaggeration.

I think that depends on how much one shoots and the loads they use. I'll run 2K thru my rifle in a year at the rate I'm shooting. I'm hoping my barrel will last at least two years. Realistically, I think 2K is low for a weekly shooter. I can see where someone could wear a barrel out in a year. I think my shooting buddy is going to do it.

 

[js8588]

Get the Savage 10ba Stealth and call it good.

 

[Varminterror]

Who said anything about PRS?

Craig, fair question. I brought up PRS, CMP, and benchrest because they all represent different cross sections of competitive long range shooters - all of which go through a barrel every year. So my intent in making those comments - which were NOT focused only upon PRS as your cherry picked quote was - was to convey to the OP and other new shooters the reality of long range shooting and resulting barrel life.

Long range shooting, as a sport, is a high volume game. As I said, if a guy actually wants to be good at it, instead of just lobbing bullets out there with a ballistic calculator solution and praying they make contact, then it requires a relatively high round count. It's a very different paradigm than a hunting rifle where grandpa's old pre-64 will last for a dozen generations.

It seems pretty fair to warn a newbie about that, since so many are focused on low cost of entry. You often see folks talk all the time about their cost per shot as a reloader; bullet, primer, powder, proportionate brass life... But they usually neglect to mention the extra Dime or up to Quarter per shot they spend on barrel life ($500 barrel installed cost divided over 2,500 shot accurate life like the 6.5creed is 20cents/shot).

 

[CraigC]

You guys make valid points but let's refer back to the OP for a moment. The guy is looking at a .22LR or a 6.5CM, because he says he can get 6.5 components more easily than .22LR, with a budget of $1000. Based on that alone, I would not assume he was gearing up to shoot for the PRS top 100 next year. The long range rig I just put together would be considered entry-level in the PRS game and it cost three times that. Catch my drift?

 

[CoalTrain49]

Craig, fair question. I brought up PRS, CMP, and benchrest because they all represent different cross sections of competitive long range shooters - all of which go through a barrel every year. So my intent in making those comments - which were NOT focused only upon PRS as your cherry picked quote was - was to convey to the OP and other new shooters the reality of long range shooting and resulting barrel life.

Long range shooting, as a sport, is a high volume game. As I said, if a guy actually wants to be good at it, instead of just lobbing bullets out there with a ballistic calculator solution and praying they make contact, then it requires a relatively high round count. It's a very different paradigm than a hunting rifle where grandpa's old pre-64 will last for a dozen generations.

It seems pretty fair to warn a newbie about that, since so many are focused on low cost of entry. You often see folks talk all the time about their cost per shot as a reloader; bullet, primer, powder, proportionate brass life... But they usually neglect to mention the extra Dime or up to Quarter per shot they spend on barrel life ($500 barrel installed cost divided over 2,500 shot accurate life like the 6.5creed is 20cents/shot).

Some very good points here.

it requires a relatively high round count.......
That can be said about any shooting sport except hunting as you pointed out. I see people who want to get into a shooting sport but never even consider the cost of ammo. Creedmoor components are expensive. Maybe the OP knows someone who will give him components but the reality is if you buy them you will be around 0.50/rd. If you have a budget of only 1K for a rifle/scope that probably isn't the cartridge you want.

But they usually neglect to mention the extra Dime or up to Quarter per shot they spend on barrel life ($500 barrel installed cost divided over 2,500 shot accurate life like the 6.5creed is 20cents/shot)
So now add that to the 0.50/rd. for ammo and you're up to 0.70/rd over the life of a barrel.

Once again I see people falling for the ammo mfg's new cartridge marketing hype. Tell me again what a Creedmoor can do that a .223 can't do for a new shooter except double the cost of ammo. Oh I know, the Creedmoor is the latest wonder 6.5 mm that can smoke all comers at 1000 yards but there is a cost associated with that performance.

Again, maybe the OP's friend isn't paying for this stuff, I can't tell for sure. That would be a nice situation if that were the case.