.223 AK...or another AR

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geojap said:
Anyway, these rifles are supposed to take Bulgarian 5.56/.223 mags without any issue. You can buy these from K-VAR for about $30. They are pricey for AK mags, but then again it's K-VAR of course. They are a monopoly; they have cornered the market since Chief Thunder got set up and sent away several years ago
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Chief thunder is back and posting on gunsnet. he has bulgarian 5.56 waffles for $14 each, and he also has some polish 5.56 beryl mags listed for sale.
Also Cope's has bulgarian waffle mags in 5.56. dpharms has the clear 5.56 bulgarian mags IIRC.


As for the 223 ak - the norinco's are nice - and the price for a MAK90 or NHM90 in 223 isn't to bad. Preban Norinco's cost more, and well....Polytech's are a different story. ;)
The SAR-3's are good guns - some have had issues, some haven't. I guess I got lucky as I haven't had any issues with mine yet.
Bulgarian waffle mags will work fine in a Norinco without any mods, and they work in my SAR-3 but fit tight. The yugo M90/M95's can use bulgarian waffle mags too.
Last year on gunbroker there was a 223 AK (norinco IIRC) for sale that used AR mags. It looks like a galil adapter was put in permanently (or at least it didn't look like it could be removed in the picture).

Here are some pics of a couple of my 223 AK's.

my NHM90 - put back the way it should be.
Before:
2110962770dbe6aae567eb96210b422ebac5356.jpg


After:
21109611004733-1.JPG

21109601004730-1.JPG


And my lowly SAR-3 :D
21290751004861-1.JPG
 
As a result I am still confused as to the situation. It appears that the saiga is a great option...but it has to be "converted" to run standard AK .223 mags? This is where the Tromix thing comes in?

If one does not want to go this route, and wants to run AK hi-caps right out of the box, then I am restricted to finding a VEPR, Galil, or SAR-3?

I would really like to stay around $500. I can build a really nice (basic) AR for a little more than that.
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With the most basic conversion, Tromix converts the Saiga rifle so that it legally carries a pistol grip. He also modifies it so that it accepts the Bulgarian high cap magazines. But they cost well over $500.

You can buy a Saiga rifle and convert it yourself for about $450 total if you have the DIY skills.

I seem to remember that .223 VEPRs will run with modified mags, but they are not exactly standard mags. The followers needed to be replaced, IIRC. The old posts on the Gunsnet.net/VEPR forum will be able to help with that. VEPRs will run you $650-900 if you can even find one today.

The SAR-3 would be an affordable option for you, if you can find one used. They sell for $400-450 now. I'm not 100% sure what mags the SAR-3 uses however. I've been a 7.62x39 guy for years so I'm just learning about .223 AKs myself now too.

High quality AKs used to be much more available and cheaper in the past. There was a time not too long ago when SAM7s, SAM5s, SLR93s, SLR95s, VEPRs, SSR-99s were $400-600 and the cheaper SARs, MAADIs and MAK90s were less than $300. SLR95s used to cost less then $300 at one point. Saigas used to cost $170. The higher quality AKs with milled receivers are virtually gone now, and the price of any other good AK is now up in the $650-1,100 range. The pickings have gotten slimmer.
 
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No sir. These are (from top) a Sar-1 and a Sar-3 (in .223). They both entered the country with fully functional high cap mag wells. They are made with military receivers (the 3d hole is not punched out is the only difference) and work quite well. Made in Romania
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LeibstandarteAdH said:
And what importer currently imports these rifles you speak of?

My point was any Romanian rifle imported sience the ATF told Century that the whole SAR-1,2 and 3 lineup was not 922(r) compliant and could not be imported anymore.

All of the romanin guns that have been imported in the last few years, and are currently being imported are not the rifles you have pictured or are referring to.
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Luckily they can still be found for sale, both locally and online. Like for me - I wanted a SAR-3 not a WASR-3. So I waited and searched and found one (a SAR-3) on gunbroker. Of course I changed out the stockset (to the one shown in my previous post) and will be changing the FSB out to a Romanian one with 22mm threads.

If someone wants a particular variant of 223 ak - they ca be found even if they aren't currently imported. :)
 
I think everyone should own at least one AK

I don't personally want one in 5.56...but to each his (or her) own

If I were buying an AK right now it would be in 5.45...the only cheap ammo left
 
wyM1Aguy said:
As a result I am still confused as to the situation. It appears that the saiga is a great option...but it has to be "converted" to run standard AK .223 mags? This is where the Tromix thing comes in?
Click to expand...
Tromix does a high quality job on the conversion. You can buy a Saiga, and a few compliance parts and attend a local AK build party and do it yourself. Currently .223 Saigas are available for around $250 and the compliance parts will run you $50 to $100 (or more) depending on what you want it to look like.

The Saiga conversion is the easiest way to a Kalashnikov style rifle.

Obiwan said:
If I were buying an AK right now it would be in 5.45...the only cheap ammo left
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It won't be cheap or available long.
 
Saigas are great even if you don't convert. It never hurts to have something around that is a bit more on the politically correct side. Considering how well my 16inch 7.62x39 works, I wouldn't mind one in .223 really. I had totally forgot about it taking the cheapy steel case rounds. They do make a 20inch in .223 apparently, at least according to the RAA site.
 
I can't speak to the rest of them, but I had absolutely no trouble out of the SAR3 + Weigers. I think the problem with the SAR3s, or any of the SARs, is that the limited number that were imported are now getting long in the tooth and have probably seen alot of rounds.

I also have had no trouble from the Arsenal milled 5.56 AKs, wonderful guns.

jm
 
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper

9mm costs more
 
Obiwan said:
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper
Click to expand...
We are currently blessed with a glut of 5.45x39 ammo due to Poland and Bulgaria switching to 5.56 Nato weapons systems. These two countries basically dumped this stuff for a couple of pennies per round. They are not making any more.

The Russians are not planning on switching to 5.56 and recently released a small (comparitively) amount of surplus 5.45x39 from the late 70s.

When this stuff dries up (and it will) we'll be dependent on the Russians surplussing more of theirs and the commercial Russian manufacturers (Wolf, Vympel, and Barnaul).

As far as "when is the price going up", that depends on supply and demand. If I win the lotto today and tomorrow run out and buy all that Century has, I guess Sunday the price would go up :D
 
"It won't be cheap or available long"

Elighten me please

1. When exactly will the price go up?

2. When will they run out and not make more?

Then I will know how long this stack of cans will have to last :)

Seriously...last year they said it was all gone....never coming back...never going to be cheap

Suddenly there is lots and nothing else is cheaper
Click to expand...

I started typing this and saw that nalioth said the exact same thing. Read the above post. And to add to the fact that Poland and Bularia just stopped making 5.45x39 and using guns in that caliber at the same time means that the entire ammount they had stockpiled is now useless to them when they can get .223 from US a lot cheaper then they can make 5.45x39. Thats on top of the already mentioned fact that they are not going to field any guns in 5.45 in the future, and had an ass load of them at the time of making that decision. Therefor the entire load of it is now on the international surplus market. When its gone, (the military surp bulgarian and polish) the russian current production (that may i remind you is currently doubble the price of the bulgarian and polish surplus) is going to be in a lot more of a demand than it is now (while competeing with the same round for half the price.) I hope no further explination is needed. . .
 
oh, and remember that none of the market share is really going to be driven to reloading this round either. Its a bitch compared to any other round unless you cast your on lead, resize projectiles, and form/trim your own cases. Throw a needed fire forming process and expensive and or rare dies into that mix and thats why i dont even want to do it, and i have been known to make my own 7.7 jap brass too.
 
I see....so no specific answers to specific questions:D

Seriously...how tough is it to predict the price of anything to go up

I predict the price of gasoline will rise...you heard it here....mark my words

All in all sounds a whole lot like what I heard last fall....yet lo and behold....a whole bunch of new and surplus ammo is available

And even the new stuff is cheaper than 5.56 which is all the rage

And I am buying 5.45 surplus for around $.13 per round....new wolf for $.17 per round...my math is not bad enough to call that double

So the sky may falll...but nobody here knows when...that much is clear

And all the hype that the erronet is so famous for just helps drive up prices

I saw plenty of posts from people that bought tons of ammo at wildly inflated prices...right before prices came back down

And I saw some less scrupulous dealers taking pre-orders at those inflated prices

So I get a little bored with the chicken little routine

So unless anyone here knows when 5.56 will become a better bargain:confused:

thought so

I will keep shooting my AK's while I wait
 
Obiwan, I think that nalioth and LeibstandarteAdH did a very good job answering your initial questions about 5.45x39 prices and availability. Your tone is a little sarcastic and disrespectful to those who were trying to help you.

I think their answers are spot-on, personally. It seems they have been around long enough to see ammo supplies in different calibers become available and then dry up, so they have seen this cycle before.
 
http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Bulgarian__WASP__5.45x39_FMJ.html

But, as has been noted, when it's gone it'll be gone. This is no different from the Port/SA 7.62x51 milsurp situation; a weapons transition in a given nation's military dumps a bunch of surplus on the market, but it's always a temporary thing.

It's not like we won't be able to get commercial 5.45 production, but the current milsurp glut should not be viewed as a permanent thing. If you disagree, just ask all the 7.62x51 milsurp addicts what happened when the SA and Portugese militaries finally completed their transition to the 223 round and the pool of their surplus 7.62x51 dried up shortly thereafter.
 
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And I am buying 5.45 surplus for around $.13 per round....new wolf for $.17 per round...my math is not bad enough to call that double
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Well i know i get my 1080 round cases from SOG for 118$, and that 5.45 wolf/barnual is currently at $215 per thousand. My math isnt that bad either. I dont know about you but I would call that just about doubble.

And anyone who told you last fall that bulgaria and poland were NOT going to have a huge surplus of a round they had stockpiled then switched to a diffrent standard rifle/carbine caliber all-togather, is a moron.
 
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