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Steve H
Member
OK here is what I'm going to play with. Once fired brass (mixed), CCI small rifle primers (400), 55 gr Winchester FMJ, 25 & 26 gr. of some older (around 5 years old) H355.
223 and H335 which primer
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JRadice45
Member
A suggestion for you. When working up a load or loading to max use at the very minimum the same headstamped brass. You do not want any variables such as case volume differences when working near max levels for pressure reasons as I understand it. The less variables the better.
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Steve H
Member
I agree but with the "older" version of this powder and the older version of the Speer book 25 grs. is at the mid to lower end.
elChupacabra!
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Yeah I agree with jradice45 about sorting headstamps, at least by brand (I use Lake City for workups, as long as it was made during the 2000's, that's fine with me - I figure if it was RP or even Lapua, I wouldn't know what year it was from anyways!)
I chose Lake City because I hear it has a smaller internal case volume, which means pressures will be slightly higher. So when I work up and look for pressure signs, my assumption is I'm seeing the highest pressures that load will ever produce in any in-spec case (I'm also fortunate to be getting into handloading and doing all my first work-ups in the summer rather than the winter). As a new(er) reloader, I'm VERY pressure-conscience these days.
Of course the added benefit is consistency from an accuracy standpoint. I like knowing EXACTLY what that load does, when loaded in brass that is as close to identical as I can get... I always trickle up to the exact same charge (or as close as I can get it) for my workups, and also for my accuracy ammo, although I may just throw plinking / production ammo.
Anyway, I think jradice45 has the right idea about brass, and also starting loads - when I started working up my 55gr FMJBT / H335 combo, I started down around 23.8gr and slowly worked up to 25.0gr in 0.3gr increments. I don't want to get too close to max pressures, and find that my rifle is most accurate with middle of the road loads, anyways - for me, 24.1gr is extremely accurate - 1 MOA with bulk bullets makes me VERY happy, and if my powder measure fudges and throws an extra .2-.3gr once or twice in a batch, I'm in no danger of overpressure. That's my logic, at least.
I chose Lake City because I hear it has a smaller internal case volume, which means pressures will be slightly higher. So when I work up and look for pressure signs, my assumption is I'm seeing the highest pressures that load will ever produce in any in-spec case (I'm also fortunate to be getting into handloading and doing all my first work-ups in the summer rather than the winter). As a new(er) reloader, I'm VERY pressure-conscience these days.
Of course the added benefit is consistency from an accuracy standpoint. I like knowing EXACTLY what that load does, when loaded in brass that is as close to identical as I can get... I always trickle up to the exact same charge (or as close as I can get it) for my workups, and also for my accuracy ammo, although I may just throw plinking / production ammo.
Anyway, I think jradice45 has the right idea about brass, and also starting loads - when I started working up my 55gr FMJBT / H335 combo, I started down around 23.8gr and slowly worked up to 25.0gr in 0.3gr increments. I don't want to get too close to max pressures, and find that my rifle is most accurate with middle of the road loads, anyways - for me, 24.1gr is extremely accurate - 1 MOA with bulk bullets makes me VERY happy, and if my powder measure fudges and throws an extra .2-.3gr once or twice in a batch, I'm in no danger of overpressure. That's my logic, at least.
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Steve H
Member
thanks for the input. I'm on my way to the shop to recheck the book and look and the brass. I think I have about 350 pieces primed and about 95% of it is PMC.
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Steve H
Member
Just looked at Speer #11.........it shows 25.0 grs. as the starting point for H335 & 55 gr. FMJ
elChupacabra!
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SteveH,
That's awesome - I can't ever get that many primed cases before I load them up and shoot them
But if you've got that many, I might at least pick out the PMC ones for your workups... that may give you a bit more consistency and better accuracy results?
Also, regarding the higher charges, I can't say I know how the pressures of H335 have changed over the years, so if you've got older powder and older books to match them, then you do what you think is best - just be careful, watch for pressure signs, and be safe!
That's awesome - I can't ever get that many primed cases before I load them up and shoot them
But if you've got that many, I might at least pick out the PMC ones for your workups... that may give you a bit more consistency and better accuracy results?
Also, regarding the higher charges, I can't say I know how the pressures of H335 have changed over the years, so if you've got older powder and older books to match them, then you do what you think is best - just be careful, watch for pressure signs, and be safe!
RecoilRob
Member
JRadice45,
Another thing that you might be encountering with your loads is the moving of the shoulder back a bit farther than it should be...which increases the effective headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it pushes the case forward and seats the shoulder as it fires. The case expands and stretches back until the base hits the bolt.
If your loads are ending up longer than factory ones, you are probably moving the shoulder back too far.
Another thing that you might be encountering with your loads is the moving of the shoulder back a bit farther than it should be...which increases the effective headspace. When the firing pin hits the primer, it pushes the case forward and seats the shoulder as it fires. The case expands and stretches back until the base hits the bolt.
If your loads are ending up longer than factory ones, you are probably moving the shoulder back too far.
ftierson
Member.
And the current Speer #14 shows a max load of 26.0 for H335 behind the 55gr bullets. However, who knows whether this was something reshot since earlier versions or shot with older lots of H335...
For example, the current Hornady #7 shows a max load of 23.2 grains of H335 behind 55 grain bullets...
My point is that recent lots of H335 burn faster than older lots, and that additional care needs to be used when loading with H335 compared to some other powders...
Be safe...
Start low...
Forrest
elChupacabra!
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You've got to be kidding! Even the Hodgdon website lists 23.0 gr as a STARTING load, and 25.3 gr as max! 23.2 sounds WAY too low for a MAX load...
Ridgerunner665
Member
Thats why I rely on Sierra reloading manuals...they do their homework at Sierra.
H335 and 55 grain bullets...from the latest edition (Edition V...3rd printing)
For bolt action rifles...
Start load: 23 grains...Max load: 27.5 grains
For AR 15's...
Start load: 23.6 grains...Max load: 25.7 grains
H335 and 55 grain bullets...from the latest edition (Edition V...3rd printing)
For bolt action rifles...
Start load: 23 grains...Max load: 27.5 grains
For AR 15's...
Start load: 23.6 grains...Max load: 25.7 grains
elChupacabra!
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Ridgerunner -
Yeah, I consulted the Sierra manual (I try to have at least 2-3 good sources before I define what my work-ups will be, and stay .3-.5gr below the lowest max I find) and that looks like what I found there, too.
Yeah, I consulted the Sierra manual (I try to have at least 2-3 good sources before I define what my work-ups will be, and stay .3-.5gr below the lowest max I find) and that looks like what I found there, too.
ftierson
Member.
Regarding loads in manuals...
What these data tell us is how the powder lot that was used by the people working up the load performed, nothing more...
When new editions of manuals are released, they often include data from earlier versions that has not been retested.
All lots of the 'same' powder vary somewhat in terms of their performance.
H335 is known to be one of the powders that has varied the most over the past several years, with current production burning faster than earlier production.
As a matter of fact, 20 years ago H335 was slower burning than BL-C2, but this is now reversed in most current manuals (personally, I think that Hodgdon has done us a disservice in allowing this to happen, but no one cares what I think anyway...).
H335 is my favorite powder, and I burn a great deal of it. I also use a fair amount of 'similar' ball powders, including WC846, AA2230C, and WIN748.
I think that you might well find that 27.5 grains of some current lots of H335 behind a 55 grain bullet will do things to your rifle that you won't like, whether 27.5 grains worked well for Sierra whenever they loaded what they tested or not...
All I'm recommending is that extra caution be used when working up H335 loads...
The eye you save may be your own...
Forrest
What these data tell us is how the powder lot that was used by the people working up the load performed, nothing more...
When new editions of manuals are released, they often include data from earlier versions that has not been retested.
All lots of the 'same' powder vary somewhat in terms of their performance.
H335 is known to be one of the powders that has varied the most over the past several years, with current production burning faster than earlier production.
As a matter of fact, 20 years ago H335 was slower burning than BL-C2, but this is now reversed in most current manuals (personally, I think that Hodgdon has done us a disservice in allowing this to happen, but no one cares what I think anyway...
).H335 is my favorite powder, and I burn a great deal of it. I also use a fair amount of 'similar' ball powders, including WC846, AA2230C, and WIN748.
I think that you might well find that 27.5 grains of some current lots of H335 behind a 55 grain bullet will do things to your rifle that you won't like, whether 27.5 grains worked well for Sierra whenever they loaded what they tested or not...
All I'm recommending is that extra caution be used when working up H335 loads...
The eye you save may be your own...
Forrest
elChupacabra!
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ftierson,
I hear that... one of the many reasons I start low and work up in slight increments. A manual may SAY a certain charge is "max," but once I start seeing flattened primers, I get cautious; and the first time I get anything more than a VERY SLIGHTLY cratered primer, I decide that's about my "practical" max. If I was hunting, I might dabble with higher pressures... but for range work, I don't need high velocity or the pressure levels that accompany it, so I accept the best group I have that DOESN'T show pressure signs and go into production with that load. If I'm gonna be cranking it out of a powder measure that may fudge up to .2-.3 grains every once in a while, I want to make sure that extra .3 or so (worst-case scenario) doesn't put me in the hospital and my rifle in the trash.
I hear that... one of the many reasons I start low and work up in slight increments. A manual may SAY a certain charge is "max," but once I start seeing flattened primers, I get cautious; and the first time I get anything more than a VERY SLIGHTLY cratered primer, I decide that's about my "practical" max. If I was hunting, I might dabble with higher pressures... but for range work, I don't need high velocity or the pressure levels that accompany it, so I accept the best group I have that DOESN'T show pressure signs and go into production with that load. If I'm gonna be cranking it out of a powder measure that may fudge up to .2-.3 grains every once in a while, I want to make sure that extra .3 or so (worst-case scenario) doesn't put me in the hospital and my rifle in the trash.
JRadice45
Member
Bob, How do I move the shoulder back (not on purpose)? When the trim length is exceeded I throw the case on my zip trim with the ball cutter grip and they trim down to 1.745 or 1.75 " believe but thats the case neck, and also they get an inside/outside chamfer to remove the burr.
I had talked with my fellow r/o last night and he confirmed the low pressure/flat primer phenom. As long as they are not cratering I should be good.
Going from pistol to rifle reloading has me slightly confused...
I had talked with my fellow r/o last night and he confirmed the low pressure/flat primer phenom. As long as they are not cratering I should be good.
Going from pistol to rifle reloading has me slightly confused...
SSN Vet
Member
same here, except I use a Winchester small rifle primer.
No signs of over pressure. I think it could be bumped up a little.
elChupacabra!
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jradice45,
When you full-length resize the rifle case, not only are the walls pushed back into spec, but the shoulder is also being bumped back, depending on how you have your die adjusted. All that is really necessary is .002 - .003" adjustment from the fired case (make sure you measure cases fired in YOUR RIFLE!). This will prolong case life, as the shoulder is being worked less, and will also reduce the need for trimming, as the case is stretching less.
If you have a Hornady Lock N Load Headspace Gague
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=485
(halfway down), you can measure the headspace length of your chamber by measuring a case just fired in your rifle's chamber. Note what the headspace length is, then adjust your dies just so that, when you resize them, they now read about .002 - .003" less than the original measurement. My once-fired cases measure about 1.458", so I resize til they measure 1.455". Note that you can't measure this with just the calipers, due to the cartridge not headspacing to the case mouth, but the "datum line," a point on the shoulder that only the headspace gague can accurately and repeatibly find for you.
The point of all this is that, if you are pushing it back more - say .01" or more - then the neck is growing in length around that much longer each time you resize it (and the case wall, above the web, is growing proportionally THINNER each time, too! Case head separations happen quicker), and you've gotta trim off more than you normall would, as a result.
I'm gonna try to ASCII diagram this:
Here is a new case
==--------\___
Once fired
==----------\__
Has to be resized
=---------\______
Neck is too long - trim it!
=----------\__
Now imagine you bump the shoulder back WAY too far -
Once fired
==--------\___
Resized
-------\_________
Now see how much more trimming you have to do to get the case neck to the same length in relation to the over-all case length? (note that the equals signs at the back represent the web, which gets thinner as the firing / resizing cycle happens and the neck gets extended out and trimmed off - that trimmed brass has to come from SOMEWHERE if the rest of the case stays the same dimension!). Also consider that next time you fire it, that shoulder is going to have to stretch so far forward to fill the chamber, it may just pull the case wall from the web entirely and you will have a case head separation. Of course this is simplified, but I hope it helps illustrate the effects of resizing too far from both a brass life and trimming perspective.
When you full-length resize the rifle case, not only are the walls pushed back into spec, but the shoulder is also being bumped back, depending on how you have your die adjusted. All that is really necessary is .002 - .003" adjustment from the fired case (make sure you measure cases fired in YOUR RIFLE!). This will prolong case life, as the shoulder is being worked less, and will also reduce the need for trimming, as the case is stretching less.
If you have a Hornady Lock N Load Headspace Gague
http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=485
(halfway down), you can measure the headspace length of your chamber by measuring a case just fired in your rifle's chamber. Note what the headspace length is, then adjust your dies just so that, when you resize them, they now read about .002 - .003" less than the original measurement. My once-fired cases measure about 1.458", so I resize til they measure 1.455". Note that you can't measure this with just the calipers, due to the cartridge not headspacing to the case mouth, but the "datum line," a point on the shoulder that only the headspace gague can accurately and repeatibly find for you.
The point of all this is that, if you are pushing it back more - say .01" or more - then the neck is growing in length around that much longer each time you resize it (and the case wall, above the web, is growing proportionally THINNER each time, too! Case head separations happen quicker), and you've gotta trim off more than you normall would, as a result.
I'm gonna try to ASCII diagram this:
Here is a new case
==--------\___
Once fired
==----------\__
Has to be resized
=---------\______
Neck is too long - trim it!
=----------\__
Now imagine you bump the shoulder back WAY too far -
Once fired
==--------\___
Resized
-------\_________
Now see how much more trimming you have to do to get the case neck to the same length in relation to the over-all case length? (note that the equals signs at the back represent the web, which gets thinner as the firing / resizing cycle happens and the neck gets extended out and trimmed off - that trimmed brass has to come from SOMEWHERE if the rest of the case stays the same dimension!). Also consider that next time you fire it, that shoulder is going to have to stretch so far forward to fill the chamber, it may just pull the case wall from the web entirely and you will have a case head separation. Of course this is simplified, but I hope it helps illustrate the effects of resizing too far from both a brass life and trimming perspective.
Last edited:
cliffy
member
.223 and H335
.223 Remington may well be my favorite cartridge, but Hodgdon H335 powder is not. Alliant Reloder 10x is. I've tried most .223 compatible powders, but Alliant 10x stands out as the best: clean-burning, maximum velocity for pressures endured, exceptional accuracy, perfect-ignition, and so what's not to love? Tooth-and-nail, I've pitted Ramshot X-Terminator and RL-10x in test-after-test. Both exceptional powder, but I've found RL-10x to slightly edge-out X-Terminator in all efforts. H335 is also squished out of competition by a slight margin against 10x. Alliant Reloder 10x has no current peer regarding .223 Remington performance to the max. You should know I'd switch in a heart-beat, if I found something better. cliffy
.223 Remington may well be my favorite cartridge, but Hodgdon H335 powder is not. Alliant Reloder 10x is. I've tried most .223 compatible powders, but Alliant 10x stands out as the best: clean-burning, maximum velocity for pressures endured, exceptional accuracy, perfect-ignition, and so what's not to love? Tooth-and-nail, I've pitted Ramshot X-Terminator and RL-10x in test-after-test. Both exceptional powder, but I've found RL-10x to slightly edge-out X-Terminator in all efforts. H335 is also squished out of competition by a slight margin against 10x. Alliant Reloder 10x has no current peer regarding .223 Remington performance to the max. You should know I'd switch in a heart-beat, if I found something better. cliffy
JRadice45
Member
Thanks elChupacabra. I dont have a hornady gauge (never really saw the use for one before to tell the truth). I am wondering though how my dies are still pushing back the shoulder (if that is actually what is happening) when I adjusted the resizing die as instructed.
I am tring to think of other possibilites of this happening. When I trim the cases go bleow the trim length (gotta measure one later to see exactly how short they go) but I dont think this is a problem because other twice fired cases (all from my rifle) when I check them they are still below the trim length. Could leaving the cases at or just slightly above trim length made them jump that much or is it more likely pushing the shoulder back?
I will have to inspect the web's for shiny rings.
Also would not explicitly lubing the case mouth cause the expander button to drag and stretch the case neck? I'm using lee FL dies and thought the expander button was carbide coated. I'm using Dillon case lube and thought that the lube would work its way into the neck on its own.
I am tring to think of other possibilites of this happening. When I trim the cases go bleow the trim length (gotta measure one later to see exactly how short they go) but I dont think this is a problem because other twice fired cases (all from my rifle) when I check them they are still below the trim length. Could leaving the cases at or just slightly above trim length made them jump that much or is it more likely pushing the shoulder back?
I will have to inspect the web's for shiny rings.
Also would not explicitly lubing the case mouth cause the expander button to drag and stretch the case neck? I'm using lee FL dies and thought the expander button was carbide coated. I'm using Dillon case lube and thought that the lube would work its way into the neck on its own.
elChupacabra!
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jradice45,
You are trimming the cases AFTER you resize them, right? Many times cases will actually shrink in length when fired, but resizing them pushes the neck out, which must then be trimmed off. I've heard of people getting this backwards, and that can cause a serious pressure problem - if the neck gets past the max length, it will "pinch" the bullet when chambered, not allowing it to enter the barrel properly when fired and causing a pressure spike that could be disastrous.
Regarding the shoulder being "bumped" back, that must happen in order for the bolt of your rifle to properly close on a case - if the shoulder gets longer than spec without being resized back down, the bolt won't be able to close all the way and, if the gun fires, it may fire out of battery, causing more serious problems.
When you adjusted your dies per the factory instructions, those instructions probably have you pushing the shoulder WAY too far down. This is to ensure that, if adjusted per instructions, the resized rounds will safely fit in virtually all (in spec) rifles. However, by so doing, you are probably resizing far more than you need to for YOUR rifle, causing excessive case wear. Remember, those instructions are meant to be safe and reliable, but not necessarily effecient or tailored to your rifle. Think of those instructions as a coat that is too large - most anyone could get it on, but most people will also find the size to be a bit off.
That's why the headspace gague is useful - once you know exactly how far back you need to bump your shoulder (using the gague), you adjust your dies to perfectly fit your rifle, and save your brass.
Here is a link to the page that explains this much better than I am -
http://www.inlandshooters.net/index.php?contentid=99
The only other thing to note is that this method is ideal if you are just reloading for one rifle. A round resized to this standard may not be safe in another rifle, yours or someone elses, so be careful.
You are trimming the cases AFTER you resize them, right? Many times cases will actually shrink in length when fired, but resizing them pushes the neck out, which must then be trimmed off. I've heard of people getting this backwards, and that can cause a serious pressure problem - if the neck gets past the max length, it will "pinch" the bullet when chambered, not allowing it to enter the barrel properly when fired and causing a pressure spike that could be disastrous.
Regarding the shoulder being "bumped" back, that must happen in order for the bolt of your rifle to properly close on a case - if the shoulder gets longer than spec without being resized back down, the bolt won't be able to close all the way and, if the gun fires, it may fire out of battery, causing more serious problems.
When you adjusted your dies per the factory instructions, those instructions probably have you pushing the shoulder WAY too far down. This is to ensure that, if adjusted per instructions, the resized rounds will safely fit in virtually all (in spec) rifles. However, by so doing, you are probably resizing far more than you need to for YOUR rifle, causing excessive case wear. Remember, those instructions are meant to be safe and reliable, but not necessarily effecient or tailored to your rifle. Think of those instructions as a coat that is too large - most anyone could get it on, but most people will also find the size to be a bit off.
That's why the headspace gague is useful - once you know exactly how far back you need to bump your shoulder (using the gague), you adjust your dies to perfectly fit your rifle, and save your brass.
Here is a link to the page that explains this much better than I am -
http://www.inlandshooters.net/index.php?contentid=99
The only other thing to note is that this method is ideal if you are just reloading for one rifle. A round resized to this standard may not be safe in another rifle, yours or someone elses, so be careful.
jim147
Member
More than just the powder is deferent in the loads being compared. Bullets also change. More bearing surface and or jacket material.
Every load has to be worked up for every combination and every rifle.
Your load may be near min. mid level are possibly over max. But a safe work up is the only way to go.
Every load has to be worked up for every combination and every rifle.
Your load may be near min. mid level are possibly over max. But a safe work up is the only way to go.
JRadice45
Member
Thanks again elChupacabra. Yes I am trimming the cases AFTER I resize them. Guess I will keep everything as-is until I can get my hands on one of those headspace gauges and learn to use it properly.
RecoilRob
Member
Or.....just back the sizing die off a couple of turns and size a case. See if it will chamber and allow the bolt to close. I'd guess it wouldn't, but this is good.
Slowly screw the die in until the sized case just barely allows the bolt to close on it. Crank the die another maybe 1/16 turn and you have the perfect adjustment for your rifle. Pretty simple once you do it.
Slowly screw the die in until the sized case just barely allows the bolt to close on it. Crank the die another maybe 1/16 turn and you have the perfect adjustment for your rifle. Pretty simple once you do it.
elChupacabra!
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RecoilRob has a good point - you can use your rifle itself as a headspace gague. This takes a bit more trial and effort than the Hornady tool, but you presumably already have everything you need to get it to work, assuming you have the patience and time
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