.223 Brass trimming, thoughts

[Palladan44]

Couple questions:

1- I'm finding having to adjust the trimmer a fair amount in between headstamps. Since the trimmer I use measures based on the shoulder and nothing else... This basically means that certain brass has more length behind the shoulder....or the angle of shoulder is slightly different?
Am I right? These are all first resized using my RCBS full length, narrow base resizing die. Since the .223 headspaces on the shoulder, I'm assuming the length from case head to shoulder DOES matter...but never does get measured.

2- I have a whole bunch of .223 FC brass that's all (with the exception of a very few from the batch) around 1.7350-1.7400" well under my target trim length of 1.7500" I still run the whole lot of em just to catch the couple that are in there that go over 1.7500" But these are all once fired, not previously reloaded so I'm assuming FC runs short out of the gate?

The ones I didn't trim, I skipped chamferring/deburring, and I did not like it.....saw copper scraping off the sides of the projectiles on the brass, so everything gets deburred now no matter what.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO the length of the brass is more important than just the neck. I have never heard of measuring that way but that doesn't mean much.

I wouldn't worry about the FC brass that is .0100" shorter than your target. Running the entire batch through the trimmed is probably faster than measuring each case first. I see no problem there.

I would chamfer and deburr every case even if you don't trim it. Nothing wrong with being sure the bullet will start into the case easily like it should.

This is just all IMO of course, have fun.

 

[CMV]

Your case gauge measures that, so it does get measured.

Note that for stuff like 9mm or .223 I'm going for how can I do the most in the least amount of time, not how I can make the absolute most consistent match ammo...... The fastest way I've found is to use a Dillon RT1500 and then tumble the brass again after trim. Using a boat tail bullet and a Lee FCD, I don't have to chamfer/debur at all. 2nd fastest way I have is a WFT or WCT (world's cheapest trimmer) chucked in a 1/2 drill, clamped to a bench. Those generally don't cut as clean & will need a chamfer/debur, just a 2nd tumble won't do it. However when I load VMAX bullets with flat base, I chamfer just to ease seating.

With that being said, here's the issue and you're already seeing it. Not EVERY piece gets trimmed, but unless you're really watching and throwing into different piles, you're eventually putting a chamfer on a piece you did last time but wasn't trimmed. Probably not a big deal other than wasted second or two doing it, but not uncommon to not need a trim for several loadings, esp if under from the start. You could eventually chamfer the same un-trimmed piece 5 times & by then you're reducing length (not to any amount that matters most likely.....)

As far as adjusting the trimmer between headstamps....depends what you're doing but I'm going to go on a limb & say if you were loading for precision the HS would already be sorted so a moot point.... Otherwise set to what is most common in your mix & have at it. You're doing your spot checks after sizing and you're trimming after sizing so there's no concern that the cutter didn't need to contact every mouth. Don't eject it into the weeds or step on it & it will eventually get trimmed

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I trim mine to 1.7450. That way i get a few firings before i need to trim again.

 

[dcloco]

ALL brass brands are different.

SOME brass, from the same lot, will not be the same after firing or sizing.

 

[AJC1]

Trimmers that index off the shoulder amplify any shoulder bump inconsistencies. Fully fire formed cases trim better and I try and just size enough to get neck tension the first go around. Understand the limits of mixed brass and what that looks like in your process. Even if I'm shooting a mixed group, I load in batches of a single type.

 

[AJC1]

I also trim every cycle .005 from Sammi max. Size them all, run each one through the trimmer, no measuring after setup. Some trim some don't but nothing sneaks through.

 

[AJC1]

Couple questions:

1- I'm finding having to adjust the trimmer a fair amount in between headstamps. Since the trimmer I use measures based on the shoulder and nothing else... This basically means that certain brass has more length behind the shoulder....or the angle of shoulder is slightly different?
Am I right? These are all first resized using my RCBS full length, narrow base resizing die. Since the .223 headspaces on the shoulder, I'm assuming the length from case head to shoulder DOES matter...but never does get measured.

Then how are you properly setting up your die for bump. That measurement is literally the most critical and is the first step to precision ammunition. I'm going to guess in this senerio you are way oversizing your brass.

 

[kalielkslayer]

Then how are you properly setting up your die for bump. That measurement is literally the most critical and is the first step to precision ammunition. I'm going to guess in this senerio you are way oversizing your brass.

I know I can find this on the internet, but how much should I be sizing?

I full length size everything. But other than .223, very round I load is shot out of the same gun it was fired in the first, second, third time. How do I set my FL die to the minimum resizing necessary?

For the .223 I load for multiple guns, I think I’ll always full length size.

 

[Palladan44]

Then how are you properly setting up your die for bump. That measurement is literally the most critical and is the first step to precision ammunition. I'm going to guess in this senerio you are way oversizing your brass.

I run an RCBS narrow base die all the way to the shell plate on my Dillon 550b.
It runs smoother than the Lee die, and the Redding one. Seems to be polished the best and the smoothest.

 

[N555]

What kind of trimmer to you have?

I use the Lee pencil sharper type case trimmer that trims based on the shoulder.
And I get very consistent results.
Annealed cases if I trim 100 of them, about 97 of them are dead on. The other 3 are less than 3 thousands of where they should be.
With mixed head stamp, work hardened brass with different numbers of firings I just get more that are within 3 thousands of where they should be. Maybe if I measured hundreds of them I might find one or 2 that are 0.004 or .005 out.
I don't know how you are getting 10 thousands.

 

[lordpaxman]

Since the trimmer I use measures based on the shoulder and nothing else...

I guess I have a different type of trimmer - actually three different ones but they either lock the head or body so it’s a full length measurement that gets trimmed. Interesting that it works off the shoulder.

I know I can find this on the internet, but how much should I be sizing?

Maybe this is a different thread but I’m interested in others thoughts as well - I know how I do it with a case comparator but others may have other ways.

 

[N555]

Measuring off the shoulder and the person holding on to the case and jamming it into the cutter head is how you can get a motorized case trimmer for about $100.
The full length captive case trimmers, $100 is a down payment and that's for the manual version.

 

[Chuck R.]

#1 What is your accuracy requirement?

I have diffrent proceedures for different requirements.

My precsion ammo, is loaded per rifle, brass is the same make, annealed, sized to fit chamber with a FL bushing die, run through an expander mandrel, and trimmed on a hand trimmer. Charges are weighed with Varget.

= Sub MOA ammo.

My 3Gun match/practice ammo, diffrent makes of brass, annealed, FL sized, trimmed in a Giraud Tr-Way.

Loaded on a Dillon 550 with thrown charges of TAC or CFE223, I then sort out one make and use those for the long stage (300-400yds).

= right around 1 MOA+ for the sorted, 1.5MOA for the mixed. Good enough for blasting paper and seel in a match.

 

[AJC1]

I know I can find this on the internet, but how much should I be sizing?

I full length size everything. But other than .223, very round I load is shot out of the same gun it was fired in the first, second, third time. How do I set my FL die to the minimum resizing necessary?

For the .223 I load for multiple guns, I think I’ll always full length size.

Most brass is way undersized when new. I normally use a long range pickup and push the shoulder back till it chambers with no resistance. Then depending on action I bump it back .001-.003. In my bolt I just make breathing room at .001. When I start to need cam of the bolt to get the round in its annealing time due to springback. On my mini 14 I push .003.

 

[Palladan44]

I'm getting just about 1 MOA of accuracy at 200 yds.....I know the reason it's not quite there is on me......heartbeat, posture, sandbag setup, breathing isn't perfect.... and a gusty crosswind 10-13 mph from about 4 to 5 o clock on this day took it out of 1MOA.
My heartbeat makes the crosshairs dance across the entire 1 MOA area, and for now I try to time my squeeze and trigger break in between heartbeats. Not easy to do with great timing and not to try to jerk it....
My Colt H-BAR is an amazing rifle much better than i currently can shoot. I blame the wind on the 3 that are left-most.

 

[Palladan44]

While on the brass prep topic, I'm wondering about removing military crimps......
I have this (pictured) and if I under-do it, I get a primer that goes in "crunchy" which isn't good. Can't have that.....

If I do it a little more, the innards of the primer pocket (darn near to the flash hole) get reamed, and primers go in almost too easily. Since the military crimp is only about 1 mm into the primer pocket and no more, I don't see the reason the innards of the primer pocket to be reamed. Loose primer pocket ain't good either, and can be just as bad as a primer that has part of its edge folded over.....
Gents, feel free to let me have it. I can take harsh advice

 

[N555]

While on the brass prep topic, I'm wondering about removing military crimps......
I have this (pictured) and if I under-do it, I get a primer that goes in "crunchy" which isn't good. Can't have that.....
View attachment 1144280
If I do it a little more, the innards of the primer pocket (darn near to the flash hole) get reamed, and primers go in almost too easily. Since the military crimp is only about 1 mm into the primer pocket and no more, I don't see the reason the innards of the primer pocket to be reamed. Loose primer pocket ain't good either, and can be just as bad as a primer that has part of its edge folded over.....
Gents, feel free to let me have it. I can take harsh advice

Dillon super swedge

 

[Skgreen]

Another vote for swedge.
I have the same Hornady reamer. My RCBS swedge tool seems to be more consistent / do a better job.
Admittedly, not the best swedge tool ever made, but for the quantity I deal with, it works.

 

[AJC1]

While on the brass prep topic, I'm wondering about removing military crimps......
I have this (pictured) and if I under-do it, I get a primer that goes in "crunchy" which isn't good. Can't have that.....
View attachment 1144280
If I do it a little more, the innards of the primer pocket (darn near to the flash hole) get reamed, and primers go in almost too easily. Since the military crimp is only about 1 mm into the primer pocket and no more, I don't see the reason the innards of the primer pocket to be reamed. Loose primer pocket ain't good either, and can be just as bad as a primer that has part of its edge folded over.....
Gents, feel free to let me have it. I can take harsh advice

The rcbs crimp remover is exactly what your looking for. Only removes the crimp and puts a subtle chamfer for good alignment for starting primers. Best 20 dollars in reloading. I use mine all the time, even on cases without crimp.

 

[jmorris]

Trimmers that index off the shoulder amplify any shoulder bump inconsistencies.

That’s one of the nice things about the Dillon trimmer, it is the die that bumps the shoulder (how it holds the case for trimming).

 

[Skeptic13]

If you are resizing your brass before trimming, which you should be, there should not be very much if any inconsistency in the shoulder. That is why you full length resize is to return all the brass to SAAMI specs.

For case length the SAAMI spec is 1.740 - 1.760. The trim length of 1.750 is a recommendation not an absolute. For me I trim to 1.752 but I don't trim brass if it is shorter than 1.755. If the case is below 1.745 it goes in the recycling bin. For me I want a little more length in the neck to provide more neck tension. I throw the short ones away because I can. I have over 4000 pieces of brass just waiting to be prepped and reloaded. More that I will ever get to. I have reloaded thousands of .223 rounds and have never noticed issues trimming brass between different headstamps. I use a Forester case trimmer and get consistent results.

 

[N555]

Another vote for swedge.
I have the same Hornady reamer. My RCBS swedge tool seems to be more consistent / do a better job.
Admittedly, not the best swedge tool ever made, but for the quantity I deal with, it works.

I did about 200 crimped 223s on the rcbs press mounted one. Thats when I got the dillion.

 

[Walkalong]

I know I can find this on the internet, but how much should I be sizing?

I full length size everything. But other than .223, very round I load is shot out of the same gun it was fired in the first, second, third time. How do I set my FL die to the minimum resizing necessary?

For the .223 I load for multiple guns, I think I’ll always full length size.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/

I size .223 to fit my Wilson case gauge and with no annealing I get 8 to 12 plus firings before primer pockets get loose, no internal ruts.
They run in my 5.56/.223 chambers, should run in yours.

 

[AJC1]

That’s one of the nice things about the Dillon trimmer, it is the die that bumps the shoulder (how it holds the case for trimming).

I've seen the motorized ones but I did not know they went on a sizing die, that is nice. I'm guessing expanding happens after on rifle?