.223 or 5.56 Hornady TAP FPD and Drywall Penetration

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Texasrifleman,
So why the 75gr vs something lighter. Do you think they go with that because of the possibility of having to shoot longer distances? I don't see myself shooting >15yards. I would think a 55 or 60 FPD polymer tip round would penetrate less.
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My understanding, and again I'm not into re inventing the wheel I just read what the professionals use, is that you still have to weigh the terminal ballistics of the bullet. Over penetration is SECOND to stopping the bad guy.

And, the 75gr bullet seems to be the best at that, while maintaining acceptable safety margins for over penetration.

You are probably right that the advantage of having one bullet for most distances plays into it but who knows how much.

nathan said:
All of these bullets undoubtedly will go thru walls esp with velocities in the 3000 ft sec range.
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Absolutely. What matters is how much energy is left in either a complete bullet or the larger fragments after that FIRST piece of wall, or bad guy.
 
A friend and I did some drywall penetration tests with a variety of .223 rounds designed for self-defense. Here are the results. We used the 55-grain and 60-grain TAP offerings, as well as some Fiocchi ammo that uses 40-grain V-Max bullets that are likely similar to what's used in 40-grain TAP.

The 40-grain V-Max bullet blew to smithereens in the first wall and spattered the second wall with fragments, almost none of which got any further. 55-grain TAP drilled clean through all three walls with no evidence of fragmentation or tumbling. 60-grain TAP broke into two pieces in the first wall, both of which went into the second wall; the third wall received only chunks, few of which made it through even the first wall.

The big winners in .223 were softpoint rounds, none of which seemed to do more than spray the second wall with fragments. Handgun rounds and buckshot blew clean through the drywall as if it weren't there.

Read the article for pictures and speculation about why rifle rounds would get stopped more easily by drywall than handgun or shotgun projectiles. As others have said, there's a reason that professional door-kickers have moved from shotguns and submachineguns to ARs. For home-defense, my testing has shown softpoints to be most desirable if penetration is to be minimized without sacrificing bullet weight or penetration in a living target.
 
And, the 75gr bullet seems to be the best at that, while maintaining acceptable safety margins for over penetration.

You are probably right that the advantage of having one bullet for most distances plays into it but who knows how much.
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I personally wouldn't choose the 75gr. if overpenetration is a concern, because IIRC it uses a Hornady A-Max bullet that is better constructed than the V-Max, which is used in the other TAP rounds. I would speculate that the 75gr. choice is two fold: first to ensure that the round retains the ability to penetrate soft body armor, and because some SWAT snipers choose a .223Rem. rifle rather than a .308Win.

:)
 
The 75gr TAP uses the Hornady #2279 bullet with a cannelure added, not the A-MAX, according to this thread over at ARFCOM. Hornady themselves don't seem to specify.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=387471

The V-MAX bullet is #22792.

I'm not exactly sure what the difference is.

That thread is worth reading, more detail on the TAP ammo then I've ever seen anywhere else.... like serious overload LOL
 
That thread is worth reading, more detail on the TAP ammo then I've ever seen anywhere else.... like serious overload LOL
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Yep, good info., I stand corrected, it is not A-Max, but it is a match bullet that might not (and probably won't) limit penetration very much.

:)
 
ut it is a match bullet that might not (and probably won't) limit penetration very much.
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Yeah that I have no idea on. Interesting read though.....

I've always understood it to be the exact same OTM bullet used in the Mk262Mod0 ammo, but that might not be right either.
 
My fist can penetrate drywall...:rolleyes:
I have also seen people throw drumsticks through drywall.

My suggestion, go with any pistol caliber from .380acp to .45acp, JHP of course. I have seen most .223 ammo go through several walls, you don't want to know what a .30-06 will do going through walls, a dryer and a few other things. (yep, someone was killed by an accidental discharge.)
 
I heard the heavy rounds are more likely to yaw because of their length and then break apart. Had an instructor in the Academy who shot a bad guy who was about to execute a hostage, with a 70+ grn 5.56 at a range of around 15 feet. The round broke apart inside the upper chest and two fragments exited the bad guy striking the hostage (the shot was from behind). Luckily they had little energy left and barely broke skin.
 
Oh quick story about penetration of the M855.

My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.

Not something I would use for home defense!!!
 
Yep, steel core rounds will definitely penetrate too far in a home defense scenario ;). Glad no one was hurt from that AD.
 
My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.

Not something I would use for home defense!!!
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Sounds like a bad day to me...I agree, it is not suitable for SD, unless you are being attacked by a Buick. :D
 
My friends father in law recently AD'd his Ar inside his bedroom. The round penetrated a dresser, through an interior wall, through a porcelain bathtub, through a bathroom cabinet, through another drywall and then out the back of his house.
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Think about what these things are made of these days.

Anything capable of 12" of penetration in a human being will easily pass through 1/4" pressed board, porcelain and drywall.

What is the difference between shooting a bad guy in your home or somewhere on a street? The effects of a miss or overpenetration are a concern either way.
 
DMK said:
Think about what these things are made of these days.

Anything capable of 12" of penetration in a human being will easily pass through 1/4" pressed board, porcelain and drywall.

What is the difference between shooting a bad guy in your home or somewhere on a street? The effects of a miss or overpenetration are a concern either way.
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If it comes down to me shooting bad guys in the street with my Colt, I probably wont be to worried about the effect of misses...


But I get what you're saying.
 
My suggestion, go with any pistol caliber from .380acp to .45acp, JHP of course. I have seen most .223 ammo go through several walls, you don't want to know what a .30-06 will do going through walls, a dryer and a few other things. (yep, someone was killed by an accidental discharge.)
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Again, it depends greatly on which .223 loads one is speaking of.

Candiru just posted pics upthread, in which certain .223 loads penetrated less than 00 buckshot and some pistol rounds:

http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428

A lot of the ".223 penetrates like heck" view comes from military FMJ, not civilian JHP's or SP's.
 
i didn't think it was going to, but the hornady 55 gr tap completely penetrated the deer i shot this year. the heart turned jello and about an inch exit hole. weird cause the front arm was no where near the entrance hole but broke the bone clean off, maybe impact or cause of the tumble effect. this is a wicked round to shoot someone down with. not a bad choice.
 
it was a heart shot but some how the arm broke off completely. arm/leg, same thing.
 
Maverick, the MK262 Mod1 is similar to the 75gr round discussed above, although it is in the 77gr variety. Having seen the effects of a MK262 at a variety of ranges, I can tell you with certainty that it closely replicates the results of a 7.62x51mm HP without the overpenetration concerns. If I had to use a 5.56x45mm system as my HD weapon, I would try to replicate that round as closely as possible, and steer very, very far away from 55gr or 62gr varieties.

From a distance of 10 feet, 223 Rem with a 55g fmj will pass through 4 inches of newspaper, a whole door frame, the double 2x4 studs behind the frame, a layer of drywall, fly across the room, penetrate another layer of drywall, a 2x4 stud at an angle, turn sideways, 3.5" R-13 batt insulation, 1 inch rigid insulation, 7/8" 3-coat stucco (sideways!!!), across the patio, through the very corner of a 4x4 post, and half way across the back yard to bury itself half way in 3/4" plywood.
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You don't want to know what a 180gr Winchester .30-30 Silvertip will do inside a home :D (my house though, I could fix the holes and not tell a soul)
 
Having seen the effects of a MK262 at a variety of ranges, I can tell you with certainty that it closely replicates the results of a 7.62x51mm HP without the overpenetration concerns.
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Thank you Professor. :D
 
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