.223 rem reloader.....quality not quantity

[docgary]

Looking for my first press....

For the forseeable future, I'm only interested in reloading .223 Rem.

My goal is to reload sub MOA match ammo - new brass with either

Sierra 69g MK HP or Hornady. Therefore, I'm not so concerned with cranking

out a 1000 rds a sitting, but a hundred of "one hole groups" (i wish!)

I have no preference re: machines - Dillon, Lee etc) and I'll gladly pay for

quality vs junk.

A price for the press and a ballpark figure for all the extras would appreciated.

TIA
docgary

 

[jhansman]

Well, FWIW, I just shot sub-moa groups @ 100 yds. with my Savage 12VLP .223 using a Lee Challenger press and neck sizer die. I could have spent hundreds more for the 'blue' or 'green' or God knows what else, but thankfully I didn't have to, and neither do you. Round was Win brass, Rem small rifle primer, 23 gr. of H322 under a 69gr. SMK, .020 off the lands. None of this means the same will happen for you if you duplicate my efforts, but it can.

 

[teombe]

Since you're looking for quality (and i'm assuming efficiency would be welcomed), I'll share with you my latest acquisition...

My new RCBS Chargemaster 1500 combo is the bee's knees.. the bat's ass.. and whatnot.

It's really cool. Everyone who loads rifle with a single stage should have one of these

 

[YodaVader]

My goal is to reload sub MOA match ammo - new brass with either
Sierra 69g MK HP or Hornady.

I use a Lee Classic Cast Press , about $70 - and it has produced the most accurate ammo I have ever shot. Loading the 69 Sierra MatchKing has resulted in some of the most consistent accuracy.

 

[stubbicatt]

I too load my precision ammo on a Lee Classic Cast Turret press. Outstanding in every way. I don't think you will be disappointed if you get it, and it is reasonably priced. You can auto index or not, as you choose. It allows you to take your sized and decapped case from the ram, do the primer pocket thing, trim, etc., reinsert, charge with powder, seat a bullet, all of it. It is compact, precise, and durable.

I can shoot under a minute with my CZ rifle, and I am content with the product I get. Your mileage may vary.

 

[jhansman]

My new RCBS Chargemaster 1500 combo is the bee's knees.. the bat's ass.. and whatnot.

Teombe- I wanted to get one of these, but for cost reasons opted for Lyman's 1500XP, which is just the scale and powder trickler. At first, I thought it was the perfect compromise, but soon found that the scale was not accurate (as much as 1.5 grains off from my balance beam) and would not hold zero, so back it went. Question: have you checked the RCBS unit against a beam scale for consistency? Any problems? TIA.

 

[teombe]

jhansman - I've only had it a couple of days so far, but I've been checking various weights against my RCBS 5-0-5. The chargemaster seems to consistently be 0.1gr lower than the mechanical scale... I don't do max loads, so this is fine for me. I had it on for about 4 or 5 hours last night, and it didn't drift from zero. It seems to be really solid, but I hear that those things are sensitive to where you set them up.

 

[Master Blaster]

You want a Rockchucker supreme single stage press, and a Redding 3BR powder measure, a good beam scale, and a set of redding dies, then add an RCBS competition seating die, which has a window to drop your .223 bullet into so the die can align it perfectly.

You will also need a good dial caliper to measure your loads.

 

[Phil A]

For good accuracy, a well built, mid-priced single stage is good place to start. A turret or progressive would not be my first choice in this case. I would not blow the budget on the press because good dies, bullets, scope, barrel, trigger, and tools for brass prep are also very important. The most important factor is to minimize the variables in all areas. Bench rest books are a good place to learn about the reloading and shooting techniques for accuracy. If money is not a problem, look here http://www.sinclairintl.com - Phil

 

[docgary]

Appreciate all the timely responses...

Boy, it's overwhelming all the choices!:banghead:

It was easier deciding on my first AR 5 years ago

since I knew what the hell everyone was talking about!

I believe I MUST have a friend walk me thru the basics with demonstrations

of reloading, pointing out the mandatory stuff vs the optional gear.

BTW, Sinclair Intl is a great site for all things precision shooting.

I'm about 2 weeks from ordering the basic front rest with windage.

I believe a one round press is a better choice than a progressive

since I'll be examining each round for powder level etc.

Now, if one of you guys lived in New Jersey

I'd pay handsomely for tutorial lesons!!

Thanks again...and pleased keep the info coming...

If anyone can put together a complete list, (hopefully from one to three vendors),
of all the gear i need with a bottom line cost, I'd have a place to start.

Thanks again
Docgary

 

[fineredmist]

I use a Rockchucker and Lee dies and have excellent results. Lee makes several good single stage presses and they are reasonable in price. If you are loading for a bolt action use the Lee Collet neck sizing die, if a semi auto you will have to use a full lenght sizing die. Finish you rounds with a Lee Factory Crimp Die and you will have some quality ammo.
My .223 AI ammo, loaded using Lee dies will shoot .175" groups at 100 yds with no trouble. The key to quality is to take notes as to your loads, find a combination that works in your rifle and load consistently. Charges .3 of a grain +/- will not make any difference that you will notice. Your seating depth (standoff from the lands and groves) is the key factor and must be determined with care. Once you have that demension it will be the same for any bullet you may load. Read several loading books and you will see that there is a common thread in all of them and that is consistency.

 

[taliv]

i have quite a few presses and I've found the best ammo comes from this combo:

resize using forster co-ax and redding dies
seat using an arbor press (from sinclair) and LE Wilson chamber dies

 

[Outlaws]

Therefore, I'm not so concerned with cranking

out a 1000 rds a sitting, but a hundred of "one hole groups" (i wish!)

I have no preference re: machines - Dillon, Lee etc) and I'll gladly pay for

quality vs junk.

Redding. ...and maybe an arbor press for bullet seating, but a Redding should do the trick for now.

 

[huntershooter]

G. David Tubb uses (or used) a 550 Dillon for his match ammo. I've turned out quarter minute ammo with mine.

 

[koja48]

Forster coax.

 

[strat81]

The experienced guys will correct me if I'm wrong, but with match ammo, I'd say that the press itself is one of the least important parts. Dies, components, case prep, weighing of charges, cases, & bullets, and seating depth are more important. From what I've read, if your goal is truly one-hole groups, you'll probably have to re-work a load once you exhaust a particular lot of powder since powder can vary from lot to lot.

Oh, and of course the rifle and shooter matter a lot too. I wouldn't expect truly awesome accuracy from a Rem. 710 or even a standard mil-spec AR-15.

 

[Caimlas]

Get one of these Lee Classic Cast Press kits for .223, a reloading manual, and call it a day. $200 out the door (incl a manual) with shipping, or there abouts.

You can use it "single stage" and you'll only have to set your dies once - just rotate the turret when you're ready for the next step. That's nice if you want to crank out 100 rounds quickly - there's no built-in time overhead to switch from a resizing die to whatever.

This press has some nice things about it that you won't find in any other press - such as the hollow ramrod which will allow for clean primer catching, and single-punch resizing and de-priming. From what I've heard, the Lee Safety Prime (save a lot of time and does an effective job) and the Lee Auto Disk Powder Measure (very consistent) are top-knotch and are well worth the little you'll spend on them.

There may be better presses out there than Lee (and you'll see endless debate on the matter), but there are many people who have reloaded hundreds of thousands of rounds on "cheap" Lees with no problems, Lee presses and dies are very accurate and precise, and you will not find a better bang for your buck - or even a comparative set of products for a similar price - if you're starting out and getting all the tools you need. For the price of an RCBS single-stage press (made in China) you can get a Lee turret w/ all the accessories you need to reload (made in the US of F'in A); that's not really something I have to think hard about.

Here's a damn good review of the Lee Classic Cast (and Lee equipment), where the author does some objective assessment as well as subjective comparison to other presses and equipment. He basically reviews everything of significance that comes with the Kit.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/122.htm

 

[Sunray]

Look into an RCBS Beginner's Kit. Gives you everything you need less dies and shell holder. You don't need special dies or anything other special equipment for match grade ammo.
Loading match grade ammo does require meticulous techniques though. Weighing each charge, ensuring the brass is all the same length, etc. It's not terribly difficult, but you have to take the extra effort to have everything exactly the same.

 

[iiranger]

Well, o.k....

Look the FIRST thing you must have is knowledge.

Hit the gun shows and buy up 3 or 6 or 12 old, used reloading manuals. Read them. One brand will "read easier" for you. Go buy the brand new version for current loading data.

Bottom line, nothing wrong with the suggestions made, but... How hard do you want to work? How much does your budget allow.

One of the manuals should go over the match shooters methods. They use straight line dies, no press sometimes, and hand pressure or a mallet, gently. (Lee used to sell the "target loader"... I miss it.) Wilson dies are well thought of. This is not fast and if you are reloading for a semi auto, probably not appropriate, but you need the information to consider.

The corbins, Dave corbins.com, and Richard, rceco.com have the Rolls Royce presses. Made by machinists for machinists. Yes, they cost more. Precision with capital letters. (They are made to squeeze bullets and reloading is a "walk in the park"...)

Dies? The Lee "Lee Loader" is a pattern from the 1800s and black powder. Bit of a pain with todays pressures, doesn't full length resize cases, but if you want accuracy, you probably won't be working at top pressures.

From there it is what you think will improve your set up. Probably want a balance scale of some sort so you can be certain of your powder charges. (Some powders absorb water/humidity from the air so what a charge weighs one day will not be the same in a day or three... like I said, knowledge...)

And you will have to try all the brands of .223 cases... oh wellll...

Then you need to practice, technique. Your gun might like some off the shelf bullet best, but you won't know until you have tried Bergers, Stark, etc. (Yes, Clint Stark retired... oh well.) This and luck, if your gun is up to it, is the route to sub moa groups. As I grow older, that goal fades in the distance. Good luck to you while it is in reach.

 

[Chris Rhines]

I load sub-MOA .223 ammo semi-progressively on my Dillon XL650. Sub-MOA handloads don't require lots of expensive tools and loading voodoo - just good components and solid, consistent reloading practice.

- Chris

 

[redneck2]

The experienced guys will correct me if I'm wrong, but with match ammo, I'd say that the press itself is one of the least important parts.

IMO, you're spinning your wheels if you think that the press is going to make any difference in accuracy. I suspect the press is the least important. For years, David Tubb was THE man to beat, and he used a little cheapie Lee hand loader.

If I had to rate importance, it would be (assuming the firearm is capable)

1) bullets
2) powder
3) primers
4) case brand

Brand of dies could float anywhere from the bottom to top depending on individual quality.

If you want to grind out individual rifle rounds that are as close to perfect as possible, hand weigh your charges, hand seat your primers, and assemble each round using a ______ (insert name) single stage or turret press. I use my 550 like a turret and it works great, and will also crank out a bazillion pistol rounds.



These were two consecutive groups. Loaded on a Dillon 550 with Lee dies. Super solid bench rest, match grade barrel, and 20x scope.

 

[KI.W.]

Tools never mind, but skill means. There it is.

 

[dcloco]

Barrel quality and straight brass are the two front runners.

The digital auto dispensers are junk. I have had three of the RCBS Chargemasters and 3 of the Lyman's.

Buy an Acculab or a Denver Instrument electronic scale (lab quality)...both measure to the 2/100ths of a grain. One kernel of H4895 weights 0.02 grains. Two kernels of Benchmark/H322 weigh 0.02 grains.

 

[John C]

A couple of dillon questions

Several of you fellows mentioned that you use your dillon 550 as a turret press. How do you manage/use the primer mechanism so that you don't spill primers? Every time you pull the level the primer mechanism is actuated. How do you deal with this if there's not a case present to be primed?

Second, dillon 550 tool head inherently have a little bit of slop in their fit to the press frame. I've been told that this is why you need to have 4 cartridges loading at once, so that the pressure on the toolhead is uniform. Do you guys shim or otherwise brace the toolhead? Or just let it be?

Finally, I've read some articles where serious riflemen have tested whether weighing individual powder charges or metering by volume was more accurate. Apparently, the data showed the metered by volume charges were more accurate. The theory is that outside variables (humidity, variation in the density of the inert material in the gunpowder, etc) will effect the weight, but not the volume of the powder. What's the current thinking on this?

Thanks,

-John