.223 REM. vs. Wylde

[U-13]

hello all. I have been researching options on a new AR build. I have seen so much info regarding the WYLDE chamber comparing and explaining how advantageous it would be compared to a 5.56 gun. My question is this: > if I only plan to shoot .223 ammo and not use 5.56 ammo in an AR platform is there any advantage in getting a WYLDE chambered barrel ? In other terms is a WYLDE chambered AR 15 more accurate than a .223 REM. chambered gun???
I'm most interested in building the most accurate AR I possibly can and if it means that I limit myself to shooting only .223 REM. ammunition then so be it......But if there is a definite advantage in choosing a WYLDE chamber then that is the way to go.
I've found it most difficult to find information limiting the comparison between WYLDE and .223 REM and not having the 5.56 NATO included and clouding my decision .
Any knowledge or information I can gain will make me a more knowledgeable shooter and might even enlighten others who have never given this any thought. Thank You in advance for any information or thoughts those who are more knowledgable might share regarding this subject.

 

[entropy]

If your doing a build, the Wylde chambering is the way to go. There have been many threads on '.223 vs 5.56' and the Wylde usually gets introduced into the mix. The basic, plain-talk difference is the Wylde has almost all of the advantages of both. The technical difference is it has a longer, less sharply-angled chamber throat than the .223, reducing pressures with 5.56 ammo, (as compared to firing it in a .223 chamber) but less than the chamber throat used in 5.56 chamberings, which is there to ensure functioning with ammo of varying COL (Cartridge Overall Length), condition, etc. Basically; The .223 chamber is designed for accuracy, but develops too much pressure when 5.56 is fired in it. The 5.56 chamber is designed for functioning, but is less accurate when .223 is fired in it. The Wylde tightens up .223 groups, but keeps the pressures lower with 5.56.
Plus, you can see how many of your range buddies you can fool by telling them Zakk Wylde developed it....

 

[Laphroaig]

I have had 2 barrels on my RRA Varminter, the Wilson Wylde chambered one it came with, and a .223 Kreiger replacement. I have to state that I think the Wylde was more accurate, even though the Kreiger does pretty well also. The rifle is used as a Highpower match rifle in across the course comp, and I am basing this statement on my slowfire prone scores. My shooting skills play a major part in what I am claiming so take it for what it is worth. I've also gravitated back to my service rifle so I don't shoot the Varminter much anymore.

The .223 Kreiger is very short throated, which limits me using longer, heavier bullets. Also, I suspect the "throat angle:, R on the attached link, plays a part in my observations. Note that the Clymer and PTG .223 chambers are 3.1 degrees, while the Wylde and .223 match are 1.25 and 1.5 degrees. But I'm not a rocket scientist and don't claim to know why that is.

http://www.ar15barrels.com/data/223-556.pdf

There are many reamers out there so not all chambers are created equal. But if I had it to do over, I'd get another Wylde.

 

[MistWolf]

The Wylde chamber does not reduce 5.56 pressures, it keeps chamber pressures at normal levels while using 5.56 ammo.

 

[SwampWolf]

Here is why Rock River's National Match AR-15 rifles come with a .223 Wylde chamber: "The .223 Wylde was designed as a match chambering for semi-automatic rifles. It will accommodate both .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO ammunition. It is relieved in the case body to aid in extraction and features a shorter throat for improved accuracy."

 

[U-13]

Thank you people for your knowledge and experience........Actual experience goes a long way . I do believe that now that I have been enlightened somewhat ,I shall in all likelihood choose to get me a .223 WYLDE barrel....probably a heavier profile most likely 18 or 20 inch. I would like to shoot bullets on the heavier end of the .223 spectrum and from what I gather they are longer which suits the Wylde chamber . I also gather that I have nothing to loose but only to gain by choosing the WYLDE over the .223 rem . I handload so the need to buy and shoot cheap 5.56 NATO surplus ammo probably won't come into play ,although it's nice to have that option available .
So my next question would be why even offer up .223 rem and 5.56 NATO , when WYLDE is better than both??? I figure that all in all WYLDE should be much more popular than what it is (especially for the AR platform). Is it just a question of it being new or unfamiliar?

 

[entropy]

The Wylde chamber does not reduce 5.56 pressures, it keeps chamber pressures at normal levels while using 5.56 ammo.

In comparision to firing 5.56 in .223 chambers, it does. Tis' it's raison d' etre.

 

[MistWolf]

In comparision to firing 5.56 in .223 chambers, it does. Tis' it's raison d' etre.

No. Your statement assumes the baseline is firing 5.56 ammo in a 223 SAAMI chamber. It is not the baseline. The baseline is firing 5.56 ammo in a 5.56 chamber which generates X pressure (which, if I recall, is a maximum of 63k psi by NATO standards). The Wylde chamber is designed to maintain baseline 5.56 pressure using 5.56 ammo.

For 223 spec ammo, the baseline is firing 223 ammo in a 223 SAAMI chamber. Firing 223 spec ammo in a 5.56 chamber gives reduced pressures. Firing 223 ammo in a Wylde chamber gives reduced pressures.

The raison d' etre (as you put it) of the Wylde chamber is not to reduce the chamber pressure of 5.56 spec ammo. It is to provide a chamber that theoretically gives more precise performance with 5.56 spec ammo at baseline pressures.

 

[HJ857]

Plus, you can see how many of your range buddies you can fool by telling them Zakk Wylde developed it....

I'm pretty sure this is true. Ozzy did the testing and liked it.

 

[entropy]

No. Your statement assumes the baseline is firing 5.56 ammo in a 223 SAAMI chamber. It is not the baseline. The baseline is firing 5.56 ammo in a 5.56 chamber which generates X pressure (which, if I recall, is a maximum of 63k psi by NATO standards). The Wylde chamber is designed to maintain baseline 5.56 pressure using 5.56 ammo.

For 223 spec ammo, the baseline is firing 223 ammo in a 223 SAAMI chamber. Firing 223 spec ammo in a 5.56 chamber gives reduced pressures. Firing 223 ammo in a Wylde chamber gives reduced pressures.

The raison d' etre (as you put it) of the Wylde chamber is not to reduce the chamber pressure of 5.56 spec ammo. It is to provide a chamber that theoretically gives more precise performance with 5.56 spec ammo at baseline pressures.

Semantics ad nauseum. I assumed (We all know the saying) that you knew the difference. If you want me to get into the history of the development of the different chamberings, the US Army taught me that very well.(Except the Wylde, but even looking at a cutaway makes it rather obvious to me the reason for it) I was trying to put it into plain, nontechnical, nonjargon words, not a scientific comparison.

Anyway, sorry, Bernie Lemke. Short story: With the Wylde camber, you don't have to worry about pressures or poor accuracy no matter which ammo (.223 Rem. or 5.56 NATO) you stuff into it.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

So basically the Wylde chambering is a compromise that allows for use of both types of ammo, Civilian and Military.
Seems simple enough...

 

[carbine85]

My RRA Varmit has a Wilson Wylde 1:8 barrel on it. If I do my part I can put 20 rounds in a hole the size of a quarter. The barrel is capable of 1/2" groups with 69 grain pills.

 

[MistWolf]

Semantics ad nauseum.

To you, it's "just semantics". To everyone else, it's clouding the issue. There is a very good reason why technical manuals use baseline definitions to avoid confusion.

To put it into plain, nontechnical, nonjargon words that isn't confusing, it is safe to use 5.56 ammo in a 223 Wylde chamber.

 

[U-13]

Hello Again all and thank you to all the responses advice and knowledge that's been shared. I think I stated some where in my original question, that whenever WYLDE gets mentioned somehow 5.56 NATO tends to dominate the discussion. I originally wanted to know that if one was to compare an AR 15 equipped with a "WYLDE", chambered barrel to a AR15 equipped with a similar barrel equipped in .223 REM chamber>>>>>>which one would shoot a tighter group?? (assuming we are only firing the same .223 REM ammo in either gun..... no mention of 5.56 NATO here) .
I'm under the assumption that .223 rem. is inherently more accurate than 5.56 NATO. This assumption is the major reason why I would like to omit 5.56 from this discussion I do understand that the two are very similar BUT the 5.56 should not be fired from a .223 chamber. I know WYLDE will handle both safely, but i'm only interested in accuracy .
So if my assumption that .223 is indeed more accurate than 5.56 NATO ,then let's limit the comparison between WYLDE and .223 REM.
SO let me put it this way we have two AR's with similar barrel profiles BUT one has a .223 wylde chamber and the other has .223 REM chamber. Let's assume we shoot the same premium match grade .223 REM. ammo through both of these guns.>>>>>>>>WILL ONE PERFORM BETTER than the other as far as accuracy is concerned???
I hope I'm not confusing the issue any further. I'd like to do an accuracy build and just want to make the best choice I can. I'm seriously considering a side charge upper , as i'm thinking it will be more compatible with a larger scope.So thanks again guys, I appreciate any knowledge or advice I can get...just thought the pot needed another stir

 

[MistWolf]

Let's address the ammo issue first-
223 isn't more accurate than 5.56 or vice versa. Quality precision ammo, whether it's 223 or 5.56, is better than bulk blaster ammo. If you're interested in accuracy, you must start with quality ammo and it won't matter if it's 223 or 5.56.

Now, let's address the barrel issue-
Assuming you are using quality ammo, overall barrel quality is more important than what chamber you'll be using. A barrel of so-so quality with a 223 or Wylde chamber won't be as precise as a quality barrel with a 5.56 chamber.

Assuming you're talking about precision in an AR, you must start with a quality ammo and a quality barrel. Next, you should have the bolt matched to the barrel. Then, you should use either the 223 Wylde chamber or 5.56. For reasons of reliability, flexibility and safety, I would not recommend a 223 SAAMI chamber.

The best shooting AR I have is a 20 inch stainless steel Lothar Walther barrel with a Wylde chamber, 1/8 twist and matched bolt. With the right ammo, it will put three shots touching at 100 yards. I also have a couple of Colts, one has an 11.5 inch barrel, the other an M4 SOCOM barrel. Both will consistently shoot right around 1 moa with good ammo.

Keep in mind, every barrel is a law unto itself. You cannot know how precise it will shoot until you actually shoot it.

A good trigger can help, but it can only help the shooter make a good shot. It does nothing to improve the mechanical precision of the rifle.

 

[Everready73]

Let's address the ammo issue first-
223 isn't more accurate than 5.56 or vice versa. Quality precision ammo, whether it's 223 or 5.56, is better than bulk blaster ammo. If you're interested in accuracy, you must start with quality ammo and it won't matter if it's 223 or 5.56.

Now, let's address the barrel issue-
Assuming you are using quality ammo, overall barrel quality is more important than what chamber you'll be using. A barrel of so-so quality with a 223 or Wylde chamber won't be as precise as a quality barrel with a 5.56 chamber.

Assuming you're talking about precision in an AR, you must start with a quality ammo and a quality barrel. Next, you should have the bolt matched to the barrel. Then, you should use either the 223 Wylde chamber or 5.56. For reasons of reliability, flexibility and safety, I would not recommend a 223 SAAMI chamber.

The best shooting AR I have is a 20 inch stainless steel Lothar Walther barrel with a Wylde chamber, 1/8 twist and matched bolt. With the right ammo, it will put three shots touching at 100 yards. I also have a couple of Colts, one has an 11.5 inch barrel, the other an M4 SOCOM barrel. Both will consistently shoot right around 1 moa with good ammo.

Keep in mind, every barrel is a law unto itself. You cannot know how precise it will shoot until you actually shoot it.

A good trigger can help, but it can only help the shooter make a good shot. It does nothing to improve the mechanical precision of the rifle.

This

 

[hdwhit]

U-13 asked:
WILL ONE PERFORM BETTER than the other as far as accuracy is concerned???

Nobody is going to be able to definitively answer your question.

The difference between the 223 chamber, 5.56 chamber and Wylde chamber is principally in the length of the leade. If all other potential sources of inaccuracy can be controlled for (and whether that is even possible is debatable) then the length of the leade can potentially have an effect on accuracy by allowing the bullet to have a slightly longer time during its flight when it is not supported by either the case neck or the rifling.

The question is whether this potential source of inaccuracy translates into actual differences in accuracy with the particular loading that you will be using? Since you haven't told us specifically what ammunition you will be shooting, nobody has a basis for even guessing.

But, if we focus on potential inaccuracy caused by differences in the chamber leades, anyone searching to minimize that potential source of inaccuracy would simply choose to skip both the 5.56 and Wylde chamberings and use a 223 chambered rifle since it has the shortest leade of the three and thus the smallest potential for inaccuracy attributable to the length of the leade.

 

[U-13]

Let's address the ammo issue first-
223 isn't more accurate than 5.56 or vice versa. Quality precision ammo, whether it's 223 or 5.56, is better than bulk blaster ammo. If you're interested in accuracy, you must start with quality ammo and it won't matter if it's 223 or 5.56.

Now, let's address the barrel issue-
Assuming you are using quality ammo, overall barrel quality is more important than what chamber you'll be using. A barrel of so-so quality with a 223 or Wylde chamber won't be as precise as a quality barrel with a 5.56 chamber.

Assuming you're talking about precision in an AR, you must start with a quality ammo and a quality barrel. Next, you should have the bolt matched to the barrel. Then, you should use either the 223 Wylde chamber or 5.56. For reasons of reliability, flexibility and safety, I would not recommend a 223 SAAMI chamber.

The best shooting AR I have is a 20 inch stainless steel Lothar Walther barrel with a Wylde chamber, 1/8 twist and matched bolt. With the right ammo, it will put three shots touching at 100 yards. I also have a couple of Colts, one has an 11.5 inch barrel, the other an M4 SOCOM barrel. Both will consistently shoot right around 1 moa with good ammo.

Keep in mind, every barrel is a law unto itself. You cannot know how precise it will shoot until you actually shoot it.

A good trigger can help, but it can only help the shooter make a good shot. It does nothing to improve the mechanical precision of the rifle.[/QUOTE

Thank You for that MistWolf : Everything you've said makes perfect sense to me . A quality barrel and quality ammo would make for excellent results provided the shooter has the ability to take advantage of these factors (this would hold true for any firearm ). The assumptions I've made are from seeing and reading a number of articles comparing the various .223 options , it's not something I just dreamt up. I realize you can't or rather shouldn't believe everything one reads online . But like I mentioned I've read this multiple times and came to the conclusion that there must be some merit to it.
Without the experience there would be no way to verify or disprove the theory , but everything you said goes along with what I know .
I own a few guns (SAKO BROWNING SAVAGE), including an AR (STAG model 6)....they all have big long heavy barrels and , it's a never ending quest to try and find a more better ,more accurate, more consistent, load recipe for any one of them .
I'm fairly new to AR's as they not so common here in Canada (restricted ),but as far as my AR experience goes I got myself a STAG ARMS model 6 about a year and a half ago.It is a beast of a gun (24inch heavy barreled .223.... but it shoots real nice groups). But like I'm sure every other AR enthusiast is only too well aware of ...AR's are a lot like potato chips in that YOU CAN'T JUST HAVE ONE.
So I'm going to try a build (I bought my STAG fully Assembled). I'd like to see if I can get comparable performance in an AR that's more portable than my STAG 6 . And also customize a bit according more to what I'd like the gun to be . But unfortunately I'm not as wealthy as I'd like so I have to do what I can with what I got. So I've come here to mine as much knowledge as I can and I'm most appreciative and respectful of any experience and knowledge that any one else is willing to share.
So again thanks to ya'll .......it's real nice to be exchanging ideas with likeminded folks

 

[Laphroaig]

But, if we focus on potential inaccuracy caused by differences in the chamber leades, anyone searching to minimize that potential source of inaccuracy would simply choose to skip both the 5.56 and Wylde chamberings and use a 223 chambered rifle since it has the shortest leade of the three and thus the smallest potential for inaccuracy attributable to the length of the leade.

That's what I used to think too. See post #3. Your (formerly our) assumption is that shortest distance to the lands will always be more accurate. I don't think that is always true.

I did some Googling after my first post, and it seems match chambers usually have the smaller, 1.5* throat angle. Apparently it allows the bullet to enter the rifling more gently.

Like I said, I think my Wylde was more accurate than my .223 Kreiger.

 

[KYregular]

Built an 18" Wylde last year using an Odin works SS barrel. Very accurate gun that I did a lot of research on before building. Odin Works is not the cheapest, but not too expensive. For what you are doing, Wylde is the way to go, will handle more pressure than a standard 223.

 

[SwampWolf]

There is a very good reason why technical manuals use baseline definitions to avoid confusion.

I agree. Words should mean something that we all understand in the same way; not just conjecture where definitions are held hostage to the whims of "semantics".

 

[entropy]

I agree. Words should mean something that we all understand in the same way; not just conjecture where definitions are held hostage to the whims of "semantics".

I agree. OTOH, not everybody (indeed, very few, outside of military Armorers and gunsmiths) knows the correct nomenclature for this doodad and that thing-a-ma-bob. I usually am the stickler for nomenclature on the Gunsmithing threads, because in order to help someone there, I need to know what parts are malfunctioning/missing. I'm not so sure U-13 was looking for a Chambering 101 primer, but just advice. I believe you answered very well in post #15, BTW.