223 Small Base Die-Great!

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bluetopper

bluetopper

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I got along just fine for years with a typical Lee 223 sizing die till I bought a new AR and my rounds started seizing up in the chamber after about 20 rounds fired once it was dirtied up a bit. Seizing up so bad you couldn't pull the charging handle back. It happened 3-4 range trips in a row and I was at my wits end and was going to send the rifle back till an old AR guy told me to get a RCBS small base sizing die. I did and my troubles are gone and my AR runs like a well oiled machine, I'm happy.

I thought others might have this issue.
 
There is a lot of folks that use undersized dies, needed or not. Personally I don't like any of my rifles to need "special" ammunition (at least the ones that are in "off the shelf" calibers), so I would have likely sent the rifle back to be fixed.

However, would have been worth knowing if the "for years" used Lee die had become out of spec. If the rifle does the same thing with factory ammo, I would send it back.
 
Good for you. Over the years I have never had a nned for Small Base dies for any firearm.....but the dimensional combinations do exist that make them useful for some....which is why the die makers produced them in the first place.
 
I use the same SB dies from RCBS for my AR-15 and AR-10 and love them. The LC brass is cheap and if I overwork it I am not concerned...
 
No, I do know how far the shoulder was bumped back.

The case body is sized 2-3 thousanths smaller in diameter the entire length of it vs my old Lee die.
 
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atblis said:
Do you know how far you were bumping the shoulder back?
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This.

Without a case gauge you may have had any number of other technique or hardware issues that you just masked by switching dies.

This isn't a small base die thread so much as its a no case gauge = guessing thread.

Not that I'm ruling out the possibility that you had tolerance stacking that requires SB dies but in my experience the perceived need go SB dies tends to go away with proper sizing die adjustment
 
I was running the cases as far in to the old Lee die as they would go and it was not functioning. I switched dies and now it running beautifully, that's all I know and really all I'm interested in. I have two five gallon buckets full of 223 brass if I over work them a bit and they split.
 
OMG, bluetopper, you opened the biggest can of worms on THR! :what: Every time I mention small base dies here I get a ton of vitrol. I like them because they ensure one less cause of malfunctions, at the very minor (to me) cost of a few less loads per case. I started using them when loading for a Remington 742, a model of rifle famous for being a 'jam-o-matic'. Despite the fact that I meticulously maintain my firearms, (I am a gunsmith, though not professionally anymore) and shouldn't have issues with dirty chambers, I don't know what or whose rifle my ammo will be fired in, or whether mine will be dirty if it's fired in them. Using small base dies takes one cause of FTF/FTE's out of the equation. You'll probably get more "I always (insert either here) <full length> <neck size> and I've never had a problem" , and for them, that's great. I have seen people have problems with neck sizing in particular. I choose to avoid the possibility of problems arising, so I stand with you, bluetopper. I use Small Base dies for my .223 loads, also.
 
Im in the same boat with lee 300blk dies. In my ar, a considerable amount of cases would either fail to go into battery or would be nearly impossible to manually eject requiring a piece of 2x4 and a hammer. Quite embarrassing at the range when you have to pound out the 4th live round. Since switching to rcbs sb dies there hasnt been a hiccup. If i lose a loading or two on my 4 cent cases - ill be ok.
 
An extra bit of die turn will not squeeze the entire tapered case body down 2-3 more thousandths like a small base die will, THAT I feel makes the difference, not the neck.
 
bluetopper said:
An extra bit of die turn will not squeeze the entire tapered case body down 2-3 more thousandths like a small base die will, THAT I feel makes the difference, not the neck.
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But you don't know if the case body was the issue or insufficient shoulder setback.

As asked above what's your die setup process?
 
R.W.Dale said:
Not that I'm ruling out the possibility that you had tolerance stacking that requires SB dies but in my experience the perceived need go SB dies tends to go away with proper sizing die adjustment
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Why is it when someone says a small base die solved his problem, the predominant suggestion is that his original dies were set up improperly.

While die set up could be the issue, in my opinion is is not a common reason particularly if a person has been successfully reloading for a particular rifle.

There are situations where a small base die is necessary and admittedly, these are few but they are real.

Cases fired in one of my AR-15s and full length resized with a properly set up standard resize die will not chamber in a couple of my other AR-15s.

If the cases are segregated by rifle, they will chamber again in the rifle they were fired in without changing the adjustment of the sizing die.

Yet, if I use a small base die, no problems chambering any case in any rifle.

New cases and new ammunition work fine.

I use a small base sizing die with all my 223 Remington ammunition so that I do not have to segregate ammunition for each rifle.

What I have learned over seven or eight years of dealing with this issue is that if the cases were not fired in a particular rifle, there could be a chance that the cases resized with standard resize dies will not chamber in that rifle.
 
I had to take just a tiny bit off the bottom of my Redding .223 sizer so it could move the shoulder enough to fit a Wilson gauge. I now have the Sheridan gauge as well.
 
I was running the cases as far in to the old Lee die as they would go and it was not functioning.
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I had this same problem before with certain die/shell holder combinations. I cured it some times by removing material from the shell holder, sometimes the die.

Why is it when someone says a small base die solved his problem, the predominant suggestion is that his original dies were set up improperly.
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I suppose because both are correct. He couldn't setup the original die properly and the new one he bought could be setup properly.
 
I am a total believer in small base dies as I want my cases to be as close to factory dimensions as possible. First and foremost I want safe ammunition. Secondly I want the most function reliable ammunition I can create. I want my ammunition to chamber and extract.

This is a page from AMCP 706-252 and what is shows, is that initial clearance between the case and chamber is important because there is very little clearance between case and chamber after firing.

AMCP706-252CartridgeStressStrain.jpg

You start with a crunch fit of cartridge to chamber, case friction between case and chamber will often be so high that cases won't come out of the chamber.

Case friction is in fact bad. You don't want the case adhering to the chamber walls. You want the case to peel off those walls without sticking. If the case sticks, because of case to chamber friction, function reliability goes down. That is the primary reason factory aluminum rounds have a wax coating. According to George Frost's book, "Ammunition Making", aluminum cases come out of the factory with a wax coating to break the friction between these cases and the chamber. Like the wax coating on the 276 Pedersen rounds, this coating is so thin the user does not notice it.

Anyway, I purchased a 308 and 30-06 Sheridan gage. I love gadgets like this, I can see the clearance between a SAAMI chamber and my loaded ammunition.


30-06%20%20Sheridan%20Engineering%20case%20gage_zps6873xiiy.gif
 
Loading for several AR's and a couple of Mini-14's the small base dies work without issue. If your using mixed range brass to load plinking ammo, it's they way to go.
 
Maybe my Hornady LNL shellholder wouldn't allow my Lee die to go fully down? I don't know. It was firmly touching the shellholder with pressure anyway.

Another thing I mentioned that no one has commented on that makes me think my Lee die was set correctly is that the first 20~ rounds I shot out of the clean AR each range trip, the Lee formed cartridges functioned fine. After that is when the seizing up in the chamber began.
 
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I've found that I have to go just a little bit more than firm contact on my XL650 to get the shoulders where I want them by incrementally checking and adjusting using a gauge to measure shoulder bump. Not much though. Like a quarter turn to get rounds to the middle of SAAMI spec.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Rifle/223 Remington.pdf

I highly recommend getting the Hornady headspace gauge set (or something similar).
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/47...-headspace-gage-5-bushing-set-with-comparator.

It's not unusual for the shell holders to be out of spec.
For example, though in this case it's too short resulting in too much shoulder bump.
https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=42&t=383212
 
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