.223 too powerful for home defense?

Jonny2guns said:
Unless you stop to put on ear pro or are running suppressed, I would not want to discharge 223/556 in a building.
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Yes, I live in the country, not much worry about a bullet hitting the closest neighbor, but flash and muzzle blast concern me. In just my own personal experience, the .45acp seems to be most friendly to my ears, and I have not noticed much flash, from a pistol. A 9X19mm in a carbine might be the best choice if one must have a long gun for home defense. I've not fired mine without ear plugs, but the longer barrel sure eliminates most if not all of the flash, especially with some kind of muzzle device.
 
If I were running one specifically for a situation where you need those bullets to stay put...I'd likely put together some 40 gr varmint rounds.

At close range it would be plenty lethal, but those lightly built little buggers aren't going to stand up to obstructions.

But the noise would be hellacious.
 
So John Ross talked about nylon plastic bullets in large bore handguns.

I have tried these loads for handguns and found them to be quite impressive and lack the ability to bust "hard" cover /concealment.


I think a projectile on 223 made of nylon or another machine able plastic may work.

Will the action of a ar15 work, idk
 
We used a blue tip 5.56 when I was going though cqb school. That was an approximately 10 grain plastic bullet moving at something like 4,000 fps. We used it in the kill house because it wouldn't damage the concrete walls and no ricochets, basically looked like you scrubbed a crayon on the wall when you shot it. You had to swap out your BCG before using them and spend hours scrubbing the rifle to get all the blue gunk out of the barrel and action.

We actually had a blue on blue training accident with them while I was there. Some idiot fired at movement and it turned out the be another one of his fire team. Guy has hit in the upper arm and had what looked like plastic splinters embedded about a half inch deep but now real injury. One hell of a bruise for the next couple weeks though.

So all that being said, yes they most definitely wouldn't over penetrate but I certainly wouldn't want to rely on them in a self defense scenario.
 
Just looked that ammo up and found out it was M862, and it's actually a 3.6 grain bullet at 4350 fps. Still didn't do any real damage to a guy at 10-15 ish yards.
 
Without specifying the ammo being used there are too many variables here, the AR can use loads that penetrate a lot, and others that are made with considerably less in mind. I prefer the shotgun for various reasons in my circumstances but a 12 GA with buckshot will punch right though sheetrock and do damage on the other side.

Years ago I was sitting on a stool in a small room, say maybe 12X12 ft, when my buddy unintentionally fired a round into the floor with a 1911, he had taken the magazine out but neglected to remove the one in the chamber. Not something I'd care to experience again if possible.
 
Bulletski said:
You always hear of the AR 15 as being a good home defense gun. I see the AR as a great self defense gun but not a gun that should be discharged in a home. The .223 is a high powered round and will go through plywood and sheet rock just as easily as it would a piece of paper.
And even the short barreled AR "pistol" guns that are in .223 seem to me to be way over powered for home defense. The problem of course being the bullet going through walls and into a neighbor's house.

As to what constitutes better choices for home defense is a moot point and I'm not looking to get into that here. Just that it seems to me the .223 is too much for an inside the house defense caliber.
Am I wrong?
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I'm not reading through all the replies, I'm simply explaining my preference after weeks of research and testing... regardless of platform, a .223 splodey bullet is MUCH less likely to hit someone in the next room/house (currently in a townhouse) AFTER hitting something squishy, that's a big deal for me/us. .223 is NOT that powerful, it's the "general" bottom edge of deer legal, pistol rounds like to keep on trucking after squishy... just drywall alone?? Plenty of bullets will just truck on through, shotgun? The sweet spot is 2 shot to #4 buck, and again many effective rounds will truck through several spaced layers of drywall... I saw one test that showed the 1 or 2 water jugs (close to 9" of gel) in front of drywall, wall gap, 2nd drywall, and an orange on the back, the .223 didn't touch the orange. Basically if there's a miss, and only drywall, a cheap bbgun is about the safest option, but after a hit? I don't wanna have to worry about HITS, if I should ever be in that predicament.
*12-18" gel is based on cross body shots, i.e. arm, then chest penetration*
**stories from e.r. personnel about speedy .224 damage proves effectiveness**
I need to test further but it seems that a fast hot .327 85 gr may be comparable to a point.... so a .327 rifle (for accuracy and ease of aim may be a contender but then we're back to platform, next would be a .380 projectile (like 90 gr ftxish) at 9mm speeds, hard to compare 10mm so far, and .45acp is supposed to be big and slow so that's hard too... maybe a .38 super soft hp at .357 speeds BUT hoping in any non ftx load that the hp doesn't clog up.... .223 polytips or hps sp's are the EZ button really.
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
To be fair I think Louis Awerbuck gave the same advice.
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Okay, and so what? That is about as far as the similarities go between the two. Awerbuck isn't big on stepping outside and firing a round or two in the air with his shotgun, to scar off bad guys like Bident, right? Unlike Biden, Awerbuck wasn't anti 2A and didn't like AR15s.

Since you apparently missed the context of my statement, I will spell it out for you. If the .223 is high powered, and high powered weapons are not to be used at home, then even the preferred weapon of our currently-elected anti-2A President is even too powerful for homes if the OP's assessment is to be followed.

In the stuff he has written, I can recall Awerbuck ever suggesting the 12 gauge shotgun as a lower powerful alternative to the AR15, LOL.
 
Bulletski said:
You always hear of the AR 15 as being a good home defense gun. I see the AR as a great self defense gun but not a gun that should be discharged in a home. The .223 is a high powered round and will go through plywood and sheet rock just as easily as it would a piece of paper.
And even the short barreled AR "pistol" guns that are in .223 seem to me to be way over powered for home defense. The problem of course being the bullet going through walls and into a neighbor's house.

As to what constitutes better choices for home defense is a moot point and I'm not looking to get into that here. Just that it seems to me the .223 is too much for an inside the house defense caliber.
Am I wrong?
Click to expand...

I can't think of a gun that should be discharged in a home, unless you have an indoor range in there. On the other hand, there are people that need to be shot, like the one imminently endangering a child with an unspeakable heinous act endangering their life. If such a person were to be determined to commit such things in a house, they take upon themselves the responsibility for the necessity of discharging a firearm in a home. If there is anything bad that comes about as a result, we must uphold justice by finding the fault to be with the perpetrator of evil and not the person they force to use whatever available emergency life-saving equipment they have. Anything that will penetrate a perpetrator of evil sufficiently to ensure an effective stop will also penetrate sheetrock, plywood, the hollow concrete blocks and other common building materials.

I don't think you can say something that is effective is "way over powered" and then demur with regard to what would be a better choice. That's just trolling and why you see all the popcorn-eating thread spectators. Maybe I've taken the bait with this response, but I won't flame.

If you heard that the AR is a good home defense, there are reasons for that. AR's fit a wide variety of people that traditional shotguns don't fit. They have lower recoil. They can accommodate easy-to-use optical sights. They can be effective in the hands of petite women and feeble elders who could have a difficult time with a 12 ga. But you know, it's a personal choice. People should try any home defense solution for themselves and be allowed to make up their own mind about what is a good home defense gun for them. For a lot of people, it will be a handgun, which have their own distinct advantages. For others, the shotgun meets their criteria best. The AR or another intermediate cartridge carbine is a good solution.

I'm glad you're considerate of the potential for collateral damage. It's one reason why it's so important that in home defense, hits are made rather than misses. For some people an AR is the best path to making hits. Have you tried one? What have you found that works better for you? What are you best at making hits with?
 
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I were to build a house, or have one built, I think it might be wise to put something in the walls to make them "bullet proof". Maybe better than taking one's ammo down to the lowest level possible. Not sure what that would be, or how to do it so that the cost was somewhat reasonable. Maybe just do the children's rooms. And if you moved, you'd have to do it all over again. :)
 
A .223 round going off in a house even out of a 20" barrel would be ear splitting and likely painful. Also a rifle isn't nearly as easy to maneuver in a house as a handgun nor as fast to get into action. A couple of seconds could be the difference between winning and losing. If I were to use a long gun it would be a shotgun where the noise wouldn't be nearly so intense and also be more effective at taking the fight out of someone than the little .223 round. The .223 is not a high powered round as the media likes to claim and is hardly adequate for deer.
 
SimonRL said:
What if the bad guy is hiding in a fridge two houses down?
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then he better bring me pie if hes coming over........

I used to keep 40gr BTs in my AR when I had that staged for home defense. I killed alot of axis deer with those from my 24" .223. 6-8" of penetration was about all I expected, but the wounds were pretty stupendous. I figured those would incapacitate someone pretty quick and shouldnt blow thru too much stuff.
 
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InTheSwamp said:
Not according to GKR.

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On the contrary.

All the GKR supporting data is RE: the M855 62 gr. "green tip" penetration round, stabilized in 1:7" high-twist rate barrels.

The M193 55 gr. ball round mentioned, was not supported.

Here is the Wound Profile for the M193 round:

M16_5.56x45mm_wound_ballistics.gif

​
Showing upset at a little past 4", followed by massive damage to 10", consistent with the results of the gel test provided.

Both the test rifle and Ruger Mini-14 have lower 1:9" twist rate barrels as well.
 
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When you have to defend your life, you use what you got at hand. .22lr to 30-06.

Shooting someone in self defense kind sort of takes ones mind off things like noise or even trying to remember if you reloaded. Maybe things got better......or...... maybe things dont get better and go off on another bad tangent. and your dealing with it split second by split second, kinda slow like, when its happening real fast.

Hopefully the person on the receiving end of self defense shooting takes most of the energy from the bullet and it dosent get anyone on the other side of the wall.

I cringed when I watched the video of Kyle Rittenhouse blowing the bicep off that felon with the pistol. The chick behind felon totally lucked out she was so slightly out of line with Kyles snap shot. Oooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhh man.
 
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Just out of curiosity I looked up a couple of numbers and compared the foot pounds of energy of a 55 gr. 223 and the frequently recommended 12 guage load of 00 buckshot at the muzzle because home defense is a very close range thing. The 12 guage exceeds the 223 by over 400 foot pounds. Neither will be deterred by interior walls and either is going to deafen you.
 
Our primary HD weapons are suppressed 10.5" 5.56 ARs firing 50 gr. V-Max loads. We also keep suppressed 9mm pistols on nightstands.

As is well covered in this thread, varmint type bullets in a 5.56 are devastating to tissue but less likely to leave a residential structure than pistol bullets or slugs & large buckshot.

And as has also been addressed, you really do not want to light off an unsuppressed short barreled 5.56 or other high velocity rifle round indoors without ear pro, it's far more damaging to your ears than service pistol calibers or shotguns, so either have a can on the thing (best option by far) or a plan to get ear pro on that likely makes the rifle a secondary to a pistol.

doubleh said:
Just out of curiosity I looked up a couple of numbers and compared the foot pounds of energy of a 55 gr. 223 and the frequently recommended 12 guage load of 00 buckshot at the muzzle because home defense is a very close range thing. The 12 guage exceeds the 223 by over 400 foot pounds. Neither will be deterred by interior walls and either is going to deafen you.
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That figure is meaningless when you're comparing apples to baseballs.

The wounding characteristics of low velocity .30 round balls are very, very different from a high velocity Spitzer bullet.

I'm not suggesting that 00 buck isn't effective, just that the useful comparison metric is not kinetic energy.
 
MachIVshooter said:
, just that the useful comparison metric is not kinetic energy.
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I thought I made it clear that either would punch right through an interior wall since that was the discussion or so I thought. Anyway, at inside the home ranges a center of mass hit with either the 223 or 12 guage, the hitee is in big trouble
 
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Yeah, everything is loud. However, there's 'enough' to damage your hearing loud and then there's burst your eardrums and disorient you loud. The .22LR is the former, the 5.56 fired indoors is the latter. The fact that your brain may block out any perception of the muzzle blast doesn't prevent the physical damage to your hearing.

That said, I still use a 5.56 for home defense, with a set of electronic muffs right next to it. It's not the first option but it is an option.

FMJ is a terrible performer on flesh, that's the reason for its use according to The Hague Convention. Use a good expanding bullet and the 5.56 is extremely effective and less likely to penetrate multiple walls.
 
Maybe the old sword in the right hand, and pistol in the left is the best option. Along with bullet proof (or resistant) bedroom walls. :)
 
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