.223 Varmint Rifle (Again, and again...) Selection process - need input

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

This has been edited in a few places, so you may want to re-read:

I gifted, I mean GAVE (for Art) away my NEF Ultra Varmint Laminated to a friend of mine, thinking that the AR15 would be the only .223 I would "need", but now I just can't shake the hankering for another precision .223 for crows and p-dogs and such, plus as a fun gun that specializes in noob-smile-inducement at the range (some noobs might be scared of the AR15, and it's not as easy to benchrest to make easy shots), as a companion piece to the .17 HMR noob gun, for windy days. I want a turnbolt for sure this time, and a good-looking rifle.

Price isn't so much an issue on this one, as I view the noob thing an important function of not just my guns, but my worldview since I like to try to convert antis, so I can go up to $1,200 if necessary, but would like to spend less than $700 if possible.

So first I thought I thought I wanted a big heavy "varmint" or benchrest style gun, in order to make recoil as light as possible so as not to scare noobs. So I had it narrowed down to either the Savage 12 Long Range Precision Varminter Single Shot (awesome gun):
http://www.savagearms.com/12PrecVarm.htm

Or the Remington XR100 Rangemaster single shot:
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/xR-100_rangemaster_specs.asp

Then I decided no, I want something that doubles as a field gun, light enough to tote around, and decided that recoil is so slight that even a light .223 is not gonna cause noobs to flinch.... Also, another reason for this conclusion is that I have a very heavy benchrest rifle in .243 which is a noob/fun gun too, but I figured the .223 would have less recoil and blast and thus be more fun to shoot, AND will double as a field gun.

So NOW (I think) I've got it narrowed down to:

1. CZ 527 "Varmint Kevlar". I'd rather have a wood stocked gun, but I want the 1 in 9" twist that is offered only in the Varmint Kevlar.
http://www.cz-usa.com/products_smallbore_rifles.php
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=13
"Built on the popular CZ 527 action, the Varmint sports a 24 hammer forged heavy barrel, an H-S precision Kevlar composite stock with an aluminum bedding block. The 527 Varmint features: single set trigger, Controlled round feed, fixed ejector and a 5 round detachable magazine".

2. Savage Model 25, "Classic Sporter:
http://www.savagearms.com/25model_classicsporter.htm

"Satin lacquer American walnut with contrasting forend tip and wraparound checkering.
Free-floating sleved barrel, Dual pillar bedding, three locking lugs, 60-degree bolt lift, AccuTrigger adjustable from 2.5 to 3.25 lbs., Detachable box magazine."

I'm leaning towards the 527, with the Savage 25 a close 2nd place - tough call - which and why?

Both of these have detachable mags, which I do not care for actually - but does either rifle have a "half-in notch" position for the mag (for lack of a better phrase), such that the gun can be cycled without the mag fully seated, and therefore not pick up a round?

The Savage *IS* about $300 less, so that's a major plus for it, obviously.

Also, should I throw in for consideration the other two model 25 Savages (besides the classic sporter)?:
3. "Lightweight Varminter":
http://www.savagearms.com/25model_LightweightVarminter.htm

4. and "Lightweight Thumbhole Varminter":
http://www.savagearms.com/25model_Lightweightthumbhole.htm

My initial concern on these was too heavy for the field. But they're "only" 8.25 lbs - kind of a mid-weight, all purpose rifle, which is kind of what I'm looking for....so let's throw these into the mix as well, please.

Any other lightweight, extremely accurate, very nice-looking 1 in 9" .223s out there I should consider? Also, if you want to try to make the case that I should run with .22-250 or .204 Ruger for a noob gun, you may do so, but I'm concerned that the extra blast/recoil of the .22-250 will be a turnoff to the noobs, espec. the ladies, and about the cost / inconvience of the .204 Ruger. Also, if you want to make the case that I should ditch the 1 in 9 requirement and go with a 1 in 12, I will listen and possibly add the Sub-MOA Vanguard to the list, or possibly even that Howa with the Knoxx stock on it.

 

[livebythegun]

Am an going to be getting a CZ 527 only the carbine model with the 18.5 barrel for a truck gun.

 

[Art Eatman]

Me being an Olde Phart, "gift" is a noun, not a verb. "Gave", not "gifted."

Anyhow: I'm happy as a bug with the 1/2 MOA of my Ruger Mk II .223 light sporter. 22" barrel. I did put a Timney trigger in place of the tort-liability piece of trash. 50-grain to round-nosed 70-grain; anybody's ammo, whether factory or my handloads: 1/2 MOA.

Ruins prairie dogs to 300 yards, no problem.

My reflexes for cycling a bolt are all wrong for thumbhole stocks. I bang my thumb, say, "Ouch," and vow never to shoot another one. The extra motion to keep from banging my thumb means a slower cycle-time on the bolt.

FWIW, Art

 

[skinewmexico]

Then I decided no, I want something that doubles as a field gun, light enough to tote around, and decided that recoil is so slight that even a light .223 is not gonna cause noobs to flinch at the range.

Both a carry gun and a bench gun are really nice. A dedicated bench gun will really make you smile. Having said that, I would get a Savage Model 14 before I got the 25. But I like swapping barrels easily, so that is a must for me.

 

[Red Tornado]

I love both of the first two, but since they're out, I'd say either 3 or 4 depending on your preference for thumbhole, as Art mentioned.

I'd want the medium barrel, as is 'should' be better off of the bench, which seems to be the primary use. If it's only occasionally (or theoretically) going to be in the field, then 8.25 should be managable from time to time.
RT

 

[Tarvis]

I think the caliber on this should be everything you think you will need + a little. If it's recoil you're worried about, .223 at any weight won't scare anyone. I put a green, quiet 12 year old behind my AR after 10 minutes of instruction and he had no problems. I really like the 22-250, but the only one I've shot was my 13 lb savage so I can't tell you on the recoil.

I say don't worry too much about recoil or the look of the gun if it's going to be an intro rifle for your friends. As far as your preferences go, I don't know what to tell ya; get whatever you want the most and stick a good scope on it.

 

[doc2rn]

Ruger 77 MKII in all weather coating.

 

[cpttango30]

Take a look at the Remington 700VLS. Mine shoots extreamly well. It will shoot 1/2" 5 shot groups @ 100 yards with just about any handload I put in it.

Gander Mt has them now for $850 but if you shop on Guns America or Gun Broker you can get them for about $100 or $200 less. It is not the lightest rifle out there but with a good sling it is not hard to tote around. There is a picture below it is the best picture of my VLS but it does have a slightly dead ground hog in it.

 

[jbech123]

for what you are talking about, A remington LTR seems like a good choice. Sorta "benchresty", yet light enough for a field gun.

 

[doc2rn]

Rem 700 also makes an SPS Varmiter you can get on sale at Dicks for $550.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

My reflexes for cycling a bolt are all wrong for thumbhole stocks. I bang my thumb, say, "Ouch," and vow never to shoot another one. The extra motion to keep from banging my thumb means a slower cycle-time on the bolt.

This is good info to have - I'd probably do the same thing - thanks Art. I also fixed the OP for ya.

Hmm, ok how heavy is that Rem 700 VLS? It looks good, but how does it compare this one which I'm taking a closer look at?:

http://www.savagearms.com/25model_LightweightVarminter.htm

Poor wittle Pauhxataunie Phil.....

Will also check out the 700 LTR.

P.S. Another long-shot dark horse is the Savage 10 "Predator Hunter":

http://www.savagearms.com/10Predator.htm

"AccuTrigger™ adjustable from 1 1/2 to 6 lbs, camo barreled action, medium-contour free-floating and button-rifled barrel with detachable box magazine, and oversized camo bolt handle."

The 60 degree bolt lift and good looks of the model 25 Savage are appealing, but the 1.5 lb accutrigger of the Predator Hunter is appealing. Wish the 25 had the 1.5 lb version of the accutrigger.

 

[cpttango30]

Hmm, ok how heavy is that Rem 700 VLS? It looks good, but how does it compare this one which I'm taking a closer look at?:

As it sits in the picture it weighs in at 10.5#. It is not going to be as light as a rifle with a pincel thin barrel and a hollow plastic stock. It starts at almost 1# more than the savage 25. So depending on the scope you choose and the other stuff you want to hang off of it they could end up weighing the same.

I just have one thing to say about the 700 SPS line it is a 700 yes but the stock is a chunk of lead infused hollow Chinesse JUNK. worst stock on the market if you ask me. I have one that I use for walking ground hog hunts. knocks off a pound of two but it is unstable in heat. I have let it sit in the sun for an hour after painting it and it was much harder to get on my rifle. That is not a good stock to me. No it was not the paint making it hard either.

To me 10.5# is not that much weight to carry on a varmint hunt I have packed 18# rifle on varmint hunts before. That is getting up there to the point where after a while you just want to stop and take a break.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Update:

OK, I'm probably going to get hazed a bit for my choice, possibly deservedly so, but maybe not.

As you see above, I had it narrowed down to one of the Savage 25 models, or the CZ 527 Varmint Kevlar, with a Sub-MOA Vanguard as a dark horse.

Well, I put the Sub-MOA Vanguard in .223 in layaway on Wednesday.

Here's why I gave into temptation on this: 3 reasons - two of them sorta good and one of them not as good of a reason:

1. (not as good of a reason) It was in the store, available for me to handle, and so I was able to get the instant gratification, and give my gun shop salesman buddy his commission on it.

2. The main reason is simply that I was impressed and swayed by that group shown on the target attached to the rifle. All 5 holes touching, says 55 gr soft point. Hey, I know *for sure* that it's not a lemon; that it can shoot. That's worth the extra to me. If it won't shoot, it's either me or the ammo, both of which can be adjusted for.

3. This is the stranger reason, and perhaps is a subconscious justification on my part: I had said I wanted a 1 in 9 or 1 in 8" twist, but yet I went with the Vanguard which has the traditional 1 in 12". My reasoning is along the lines of, don't try to put a round peg in a square hole - use a bigger gun like a .243 if you want to go distance shooting, not try to press the lowly .223 into service beyond its intended niche as a poodle shooter (by using a 1 in 9 or 1 in 7 with heavy bullets). If you look at ballistics, velocity far outweighs bullet BC out to 300 yards (which is the max I'd shoot this particular rifle anyway, EVEN IF I had a 1 in 7" twist!), in contributing to the straightest trajectory - it is only at very long ranges when BC can matter enough to overcome a lower initial velocity. So I figure a .223 should be used with light bullets going very fast - 40-55 grainers, or at most, 64 grainers like the Win powerpoint. If it also just happens to shoot 68 grain black hills, then that's icing on the cake, but I do not expect it to shoot these well at all, and won't be disappointed if the rifle does not shoot them. What I expect it to do is shoot 45-52 grain varmint bullets very accurately for killing paper and crows/p-dogs, and shoot 55-64 grain soft point bullets accurately enough to take a small whitetail, should I choose to do that. Rationalization or good reasoning? Still got the 1 in 9 AR if I want to go heavier.

Also, as a minor reason, I really dig the looks of the fiberglass stock that comes on the Sub-MOA Vanguard Varmint:

http://www.weatherby.com/products/guns.asp?prd=Rifles&prd_sub_type=3&prod_code=VSR204RG2O

What do you think? Particularly about my reasoning in #3? Did I make a mistake? I can still "undo" the transaction by just applying my down payment to a different gun. Should I hold out for the Savage 25?

P.S. The Sub-MOA Vanguard is just a wee bit pricier than the Savage, for "being a Howa", at $779!

P.P.S. As I mentioned, I wanted a Jack-of-all-trades .223 - a midweight if you will - heavy enough to be a benchrest gun, but light enough for field work. I think the 8.25 lb. Sub-MOA Varmint fits the bill nicely (when compared to say, the 12 lb Savage LRPV: http://www.savagearms.com/12PrecVarm.htm ).

Now what scope.....

 

[Art Eatman]

I've found that 50-ish grain bullets from a .223 are ruinacious on coyotes, so I've never seen any need to go heavier. For my usage, around 300 yards is about as far as I'm interested in shooting an animal. Aw, yeah, I'll sometimes push 400 on a prairie dog with my Swift, but that's just an occasional thing, just to sorta prove that I can still do it.

 

[NCsmitty]

I believe you made an informed decision and by hefting the rifle you knew it felt right. I have no doubt that it will be everything you wanted in a rifle. Your reasoning on all three points are quite valid. The 223 is not a 1000 yd cartridge as a rule and your thoughts on the 45-55gr bullets as the best for target and varmints are correct. With a 60gr. Partition bullet available, it will serve you well for the larger game, providing they shoot accurately. I believe that this rifle will shoot everything well and you know Weatherby will not put their name on junk. Looks cool too! Good choice!
Your choice of glass is wide open, I've got a Millett on my 22-250 and it's a good clear scope.

NCsmitty

 

[tepin]

I have the savage lrpv - you have to shoot from a bag or stand because it is so heavy.

 

[TIMC]

How about this, the Savag mod 11 BTH 6.75 pounds 1:9 twist. Mine is a tack driver with 60 grain V-Max and 26.0 grains of Varget. Mine was right at $700 at Cabela's. Also a fine looking rifle!