.223 / WSR primer pierced

[cwall64]

Loading 223 with Nosler and Sierra book values (mid range, working up from min to max) and got several what look like pierced primers to me.



Is it the WSR primer or something else (most likely)? I have not seen this is other reloadings with mid range loads, but the AR platform is new to me. And is it best to replace the firing ping after seeing this (new AR).

 

[Reloadron]

Firing pins can be too sharp or too long? How well was the primer seated? Was the primer seated till it bottomed out and was below the case head? Hard to say as a pierced primer can have several causes. Too sharp of a firing pin or too long can be cured with a few minuets and a file. How close to maximum were the loads? Really, there could be a number of causes.

Also, check the bolt face to see if the hot gas damaged or cut it.

Ron

 

[243winxb]

Pierced or Blanked Primers.

Pierced or Blanked Primers.

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1. Check the firing pin, it should have no gas cutting or deformities. 2. Firing pin protrusion should be checked. Internet search shows .055" to be about right for bolt actions. For an AR15., Colt and S&W M&P 15 armorer manuals uses a GO dimension of .036" and a NO-GO dimension of .028".
Check with a gun smith as each firearm IS different. 3.The firing pin must stay in contact with the primer on firing. A weak hammer spring on an AR or a weak firing pin spring like on a Rem 700 bolt action will let the firing pin rebound on primer piercing when the hot gas pushes the pin backwards. 4.If the hole the pin sits in is to larger in diameter, the primer flowes back into this hole till the center of the primer separates and fall into the action or travels into the firing pin area. Bushing the bolt action firing pin hole will fix this. Or you may want to try a magnum primer with a thicker cup . Military ammo may have a crimp that needs to be removed before seating a new primer. The crimp is removed by reaming or swaging the primer pocket. Swaging may be needed here so the prime can be seated lower in the pocket. High primer = misfires & pierced primers. There is also a high pressure sign visible. The reloader was using a "starting" load and CCI 400 primers. The CCI 400 is thin & soft, change to a mag. or Rem. 7 1/2 primers. The pressure sign may have formed on firing the factory ammo. I just shot some XM193F factory, the web area expanded .0015" on firing. This is a sigh of a "hot" load.

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[rodregier]

I'm not a big fan of the current WSR (gold) primers for .223 Rem, they are thinner than the earlier (silver) pre-2000 version. I'm now using the CCI 450 or BR-4 primers for .223 Rem.

That being said, it's also possible that the variables have added up wrong for you and you're getting excessive pressure. Seeing ejector scuffing or impressions on the case bases? (Another overpressure sign).

 

[cwall64]

I am not seeing any scuffing on the case from the extractor (but I might not know what to look for there). Cases were swaged with a Dillon 600. Primers all seemed to be seated properly (hand primed and ran figure across each one). Load was Nosler 60 grain ballistic tip, COAL 2.260", with WSR, Benchmark 22.5 grains (hand weighed), in a federal once fired case (1.745"). I need to look at the firing pin, and I'll also try some other primer types - i guess.

It seemed to happen 2 or 3 times out of 50 rounds in the different ladder test I was doing.

 

[243winxb]

Looks like your 1 gr away from Noslers maximum. http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/223-remington/ The primer should be flush to .004" below the case head. You could try dropping down to 21.5 gr or try a mag primer to see if one help?? Make sure the pockets are swaged correctly. Not sure what the problem is???

 

[cwall64]

Looks like your 1 gr away from Noslers maximum. http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/223-remington/ The primer should be flush to .004" below the case head. You could try dropping down to 21.5 gr or try a mag primer to see if one help?? Make sure the pockets are swaged correctly. Not sure what the problem is???

Yes, 1 grain away, but he range is 2 grains (21.5 - 23.5) so in the midrange. It did kind of confuse me as the 21.5 didn't have any, nor did 23.0 grains?!?! It did have a nice 100 yard grouping!

 

[243winxb]

Maybe difference in brass? Nosler lists Case holds 27.6 gr of water. Check it agains your? I have never done it. I check empty case weight, no water.

 

[cwall64]

Maybe difference in brass? Nosler lists Case holds 27.6 gr of water. Check it agains your? I have never done it. I check empty case weight, no water.

Good idea! I totally missed that one... Thanks.

 

[cwall64]

I just noticed some interesting data, I looked at previous brass loaded with more detailed min-max load workup and no piercings (0.2 grain steps from min to max). I was using CCI 400s previously... It could be a smart idea to go back and test with CCI 400s again and see if results are different.

 

[243winxb]

Primers

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php I am not a fan of CCI 400. Rem. 7 1/2 better. Never use Rem 6 1/2.

 

[W.E.G.]

Stop using "standard" small rifle primers in 5.56 ammo.

 

[Rule3]

You state it is a "NEW" AR. Is it brand new or new to you? If brand new fire factory ammo and see what happens, if pierced, then let the company deal with it.

Have you fired any factory ammo in it?? If not, try some, If yes, did it pierce those primers??

 

[cwall64]

I have shot roughly 500 rounds of American Eagle AE223J through it and I have not noticed any issues with the primers. I have not paid as close attention to the factory ammo. I did notice one or two on Hornady match ammo (75 grain). The gun is new to me, i stated it wrong earlier - was trying to say I was new to 223 loading. I have loaded many rifle and handgun rounds over the last 30 years, but never seen primers like this. Always bolt action or revolver...

 

[rodregier]

The CCI400 primers were designed for max pressures *below* .223 Rem.

Use CCI450 or BR-4 for .223 Rem usage if you want to use CCI components.

 

[moxie]

W.E.G. Per post #12:

Why? He said he's loading .223. Most data is for .223, not 5.56, and usually calls for regular primers.

Mag primers give you a bit hotter and longer flame but that doesn't matter when powder ignites easily. Regular primers certainly aren't more prone to piercing than mag. Why would they be?

 

[W.E.G.]

"Regular" small rifle primers are thinner than magnum primers.

Keep on using them if they work do you.

I haven't loaded any ".223" with anything other than magnum primers since 1996.
That's when I stopped having pierced primers.

 

[moxie]

Interesting. I'm assuming you were having pierced primers without any other cause and simply switching to mags solved the problem.

I've personally never seen a pierced SRP in .223/5.56. I've shot many thousands of factory and my own reloads and never noticed a pierced primer. And, I have scrounged a lot of brass off the ranges over the years and never saw one either. I'm assuming that some quantity of range brass has regular primers, both in factory and reloaded form. The only factory loads that have mag primers are, I think, 5.56, or possibly crimped .223, but destined for military use in either case.

So given that in my experience at least, pierced primers are pretty rare, my first inclination would be that the OP has a firing pin or hammer/spring problem. I'd want to rule that out before switching to mag primers.

 

[cwall64]

W.E.G. Per post #12:

Why? He said he's loading .223. Most data is for .223, not 5.56, and usually calls for regular primers.

Mag primers give you a bit hotter and longer flame but that doesn't matter when powder ignites easily. Regular primers certainly aren't more prone to piercing than mag. Why would they be?

I was using the WSR primers as the Hornady #9 manual called for them in the load for their bullets in .223 and 5.56. I loaded Hornady bullets first so I bought my primer supply based on it.

 

[cwall64]

Interesting. I'm assuming you were having pierced primers without any other cause and simply switching to mags solved the problem.

I've personally never seen a pierced SRP in .223/5.56. I've shot many thousands of factory and my own reloads and never noticed a pierced primer. And, I have scrounged a lot of brass off the ranges over the years and never saw one either. I'm assuming that some quantity of range brass has regular primers, both in factory and reloaded form. The only factory loads that have mag primers are, I think, 5.56, or possibly crimped .223, but destined for military use in either case.

So given that in my experience at least, pierced primers are pretty rare, my first inclination would be that the OP has a firing pin or hammer/spring problem. I'd want to rule that out before switching to mag primers.

traveling this week, but I'll pull my firing pin out Friday and give in a good inspection.

 

[cwall64]

Just looked at the Nosler load data and they use WSR primers in the 5.56 loads - http://www.nosler.com/nosler-load-data/556x45-nato/.

 

[moxie]

They should work just fine. I've used a ton of them without issue.

Per post # 14, you have experienced at least a few pierced primers with factory ammo. This tells me the common denominator is your rifle, not the primers or the loads.

By all means check firing pin for length and nose distortion. It might have gotten boogered up inadvertently. Also check hammer and spring for proper operation.

 

[gamestalker]

That firing pin indentation looks rather deep to me, but the picture is kind of fuzzy though.

I've experienced a couple pierced primers over the years, well back in my early beginnings. In my case, all were the result of high pressures. And every one of them exhibited excessive primer flow, excessive to the extent that I could barely determine where the edge of the primer ended and the case head began. But that was with bolt guns, not an AR.

That said, aside from the pierced primer, did you see any excessive pressure signs?

Did the brass fly significantly further than other times with the same range load?

Did you measure the case head and compare those measurements with other similar loads? If the case head expanded, you probably hit some high pressures.

And did you chrony those? Although chrony doesn't always nail it, if velocities are significantly higher for that barrel and similar loads, it would at least provide some degree of insight.

GS

 

[W.E.G.]

23.5 grains N135, 80 SMK (moly) seated 2.400 oal.

Piercing and blanking was persistent until switching from CCI 400 to CCI 450.
Problem disappeared immediately.

Ruined a half dozen firing pins and two bolts before I learned my lesson.

 

[Reloadron]

While I never experienced a problem using CCI 400 primers I generally use either thew CCI 450 small rifle magnum or CCI BR4 bench rest primers and I also use the less sensitive CCI #41. About two weeks ago I ran a velocity test using different primers and for my given loads and bullets the magnum primers yielded a higher velocity by a small amount. Anyway, while I never had any issues with the CCI 400 to each their own and use what works for you sans issues or problems.

Ron