.22lr Accuracy shooting, HV versus subsonics.

[DasFriek]

Tool is not correct in this case, literally.

Are you referring to something "TooTaxed" said? im kinda lost on the first part of your answer.
I think your saying higher velocity centerfire loads are more accurate than lesser powered loads. I dont want to go into to that discussion too deeply but i always thought in centerfire the bench guys like HV and the IDP or what ever they are like the lesser loaded rounds for faster follow ups, Not so much about accuracy.
Anyhow thats off course of what im interested in.

But answer me this.
Why don't the BIG .22lr Match ammo makers make a HV target load thats as good as the SS loads? Quality isn't what kills it, They have the means to make very high quality HV rounds. But rather the hypersonic transition kills the idea and they just dont bother due to that.
But what i don't get is why NO one makes decently priced bulk SS ammo.

Eley and Aguila both make mid ranged ones and ill be trying those, I see a big ammo order for me this month from Ammuntintiontogo.com trying many new SS loads.

I also found Bricks of CCI SV 500rd for $25 at Dick's sporting goods ill be picking up also.
They also had some Winchester Black box Target bricks ive never seen i may try, But im not sure on the velocity but should be SS to call it "Target"

I know Federal AutoMatch wich is HV also doesn't shoot any better than thier 510 Champion imo and is alot more expensive.

The thing is if i break down and buy the Bolt action i want the HV ammo may not be an issue like it is now. It may handle it much better, And being a BA with a 5 round mag should slow my shooting of the expensive ammo way down also.

Some may agree and some may not, But im looking hard at the Savage MKII G wich is a lite barrel supposedly but looks more like a mid sized one in person and has a wooden stock for $209
But i could splurge and buy a CZ 452 at $400 or the Savage MKII BTV for $329.
But with all this ammo to buy and i need a decent benchrest which i found a good one locally for $50 i have alot of decisions on just what i can spend on the gun.
I think i can swap scopes around as i have an extra one i can slap on the 15/22 for a month until i can replace it.
But i know how to do it cheaply which i very well may have to. I dont like the idea of a $30 scope on my 15/22, Nor do i like shooting off bags that have Ziploc freezer bags inside them filled with kitty litter.
But ill do what i have to to get what i want, But here i think the MKII G will work just as well as a CZ452 at 50 yards.

 

[DasFriek]

That is not bad shooting.

Thank you, Im just learning.
But the work ive put into my AR style trigger on the 15/22 helps tremendously.

Here's a shot of my Savage 93BTV .17HMR with 3 shot groups at 50 yards and front and rear sand bags. This was done with Hornady 17gr and CCI 17gr, But i prefer the 20gr for target shooting but im out at the moment.

 

[rangerruck]

Not to rain on your parade Das; but if that were my semi auto shooting like that at 50 yards, I would start some serious tweeking, or sell it. that rifle is just not made to be accurate, period. almost any 22 out there, semi or bolt, and any price range, except a stock ruger 10.22 , will outshoot that, and should by at least half again smaller groups. My mod 60 will shoot groups half that size, at 100 yds. Like these;














sandbag rests, 100 yds, witnessed 3 years ago, 24x Tasco varmint scope.

take a real close look again, at the american eagle group, with 1 flyer...

 

[DasFriek]

Your not telling me anything i dont know, The 15/22 is a plinker and not a bench gun.
But you use what you have.
Im only proud of my results as i did it with a gun that should not be shooting that good. Even tho you say its bad.
Im not wanting to get into competition, Just have fun.

What id really like is to shoot the type of groups at 50 yards like i just posted but with cheap bulk ammo, And then shoot some amazing groups at 50 and 100 yards with Match ammo.

BTW i never expected a Model 60 to shoot that well.
Also remember, Ive only been shooting on the 50 yard range less than 1 month and doing it with the wrong gun.
Thats why i have so many questions so i can do it right.

 

[22-rimfire]

The Savage is a good choice by the way. I went with the Mark II Classic which costs about the same as the CZ 452. But I already had a 452. I do like a nice walnut stock. The stock on my CZ is average. I have the varmint version with a Mueller APV 4.5-14x scope. I don't think you gain much if anything over the regular barrel. Didn't you say you had another thread on barrel choice? My favorite 22 rifles are Remington's; love the 541-S and 547.

 

[DasFriek]

Yes, I was debating the lite and heavy barrel versions on the Savages and CZ's. But im convinced enough that a lite barrel will do what i need.
I looked at the Savage MKII G and it had no iron sights which made it look cleaner, But also the barrel looks more like a mid weight and not so lite compared to the CZ's.

Ive not looked into the Remington bolt actions, But i do know no one carries them locally.
Id have to order one and pay full price im sure. But ill give them a look as long as they are in the low CZ price range. I need to stay under $400 for the gun if possible.

Mainly im kinda stuck on the MKII G which is the lite barrel and a basic solid wood stock.
I can always buy a Boyds "seconds" nice thumb hole stock off ebay rather cheap and fit and finish it myself.

I know i kept an eye on my 93BTV heavy barrel today while shooting and it never went past warm even shooting .17HMR's
But a 5 round mag on a bolt action keeps the heat down on any gun, Especially if your taking your time aiming.

At times im sweating the gun decision, But in the end i know im ok as i can fall back on the MKII G for $209 and have a great starter gun to get going and still shoot very well.

Plus i know how to lighten the accutriggers up and clean and polish the bolts and get nice 1lb trigger pulls.
But that doesn't mean im not wanting a CZ, Quality does count at times and that company delivers as does Savage.
The thing is a $200 Savage is the same gun as a $500 Savage thats just dressed up and prettier. Besides gaining a heavy barrel everything else is cosmetic.

 

[mongo4567]

I have a Marlin 980SQ in 22lr. It is a heavy barrel bolt rifle. It is so accurate it is boring. At 50 yards, I just shoot at my first hole and open it up slightly. I tried 10 or more kinds of ammo when I first got it; the Remington bulk HV was not measurably less accurate than the match ammo I tried. I shoot mostly Fed bulk pack HV these days, it likes it a lot.

 

[22-rimfire]

You're fine with your choice. With the Savage Mark II Classic, yes, it is mostly window dressing and window dressing costs. It does however have a longer barrel than any of the other versions last I checked. But that is not a big deal in a 22LR.

The Remington 547 is a much improved/customized Remington 504. The 504 was discontinued. It was a great idea by Remington, but it simply did not deliver the accuracy that one would expect out of a "higher" end Remington rifle. The 17HMR versions typically shot well however. The Savage and CZ trumped it without even breathing hard in most cases. The Remington 541-S (or 541-T) are the predecessors of the 504. They are truly great rifles with the -S version taking the accuracy prize on a more consistant basis than the -T version. You have to find them on the used market.

The 547 is expensive by most standards (Your Savage price x 5) and certainly is not your typical starter sporter rifle unless you have a lot of money available for such things. You have to want one and I did order mine when they first came out about a year ago. You have to like the sleak walnut stock and design similar to the Remington M700. Truly a great rifle.

 

[DasFriek]

I like a nice stock also, I love a few of the high end thumbhole stocks Savage has, But they almost double the price since they do other extras to the barrels also.
But imo thats a good thing as a guy with $200 can shoot just as good as the guy who bought the $500 version. Not much of a incentive to buy the $500 gun tho.

I gotta admit i have a Bias against Remington rimfire products when i bought a bulk pack of Golden Bullets and the had bobble heads for bullets on top of the .22lr case.
But that not fair to judge a company as a whole by one product.

 

[22-rimfire]

Some people truly dislike the current Remington Golden Bullets bulk packs or Thunderbolts. I shoot them and a loose bullet does not turn me off. But that is a quality control issue and perhaps indicative of the product line. I have not shot much of the other HV offerings but have used Target and CBee's. In general, I feel your better off buying Federal 22 ammo if you are looking for bulk packs and a standard HV round like the Lightning 510B's. The Lightnings are my go-to "cheap" ammo when I can find them at Walmart mostly.

Don't mix Remington rifles with Remington 22 rimfire ammo. Different beasts. Remington has made fine rimfires for many years.

 

[rangerruck]

though they don't come in a bulk pack, you should really try the american eagles; not only are they accurate( though they may give the occasional flyer)
but they are usually the cheapest 22 ammo out there as well, per 50 round box.

 

[22-rimfire]

AE22 is not bad ammo. I believe it comes in 40 round boxes however. A brick is 400 rounds vs 500 rounds. The brick pricing can be deceptive as a result.

 

[rangerruck]

correct;
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=597330

 

[DasFriek]

I can get AE locally under $20 usually, Ill give it a try.
Under the recommendation of a older salesman at my trusted local shop I picked up a brick of CCI Blazer. He said they work better than Federal 510 for him.

Ive come to a few decisions, But ill still be plagued by some HV inaccuracy in my 15/22 as im gonna keep it and sell/trade my Savage 93BTV .17HMR

The 15/22 is the one with the HV inaccuracy but mainly at 50 yards, But it wont be used at that distance very much since ill be buying a .22lr bolt action.
At 25 yards and closer its just fine as its just a plinker anyhow, But still does well with Match ammo at 50 yards.
Ill save money on .17hmr ammo and my Match .22lr wont be shot so fast since it wont be done with a semi auto anymore.
Ill miss the .17, She was accurate and a beautiful gun. But i can replace it with an exact clone or a better CZ with the money she will bring in.

That way i only need to buy Match .22lr and Bulk .22lr and im rather sure ill be happy with the performance of mid priced Match ammo at 50 yards and eventually 100 yards.

I would keep the 17 but it wouldn't get shot much anymore and i don't need so many "fun guns" that some start sitting at home on range day.

 

[farscott]

In .22 competition shooting, all true match loads are subsonic as subsonic loads exhibit less wind drift (counter-intuitive but true) and accuracy is not affected when the bullet goes transonic.

That said each rimfire firearm is different, and you need to see what works best in yours. Each of my rifles shoots best with a different load. One (Kimber 82G) does great with CCI Green Tag, while the other (Kimber HS) shoots mediocre at best with the same load. My Sako Quad likes Eley Practice and Remington Subsonic.

Once I find a load that works well for a rifle, I buy as much of that lot (and only that lot) as I can find. Until that ammo is exhausted, I do not clean the bore, only the chamber of the rifle. When I switch ammo, I clean the bore, and I fire some fouling shots with the new load before testing for groups.

 

[CraigC]

I'm unsure where this $500 for a thumbhole Savage comes from. MSRP on these guns are $406 and $450 blued and stainless respectively. Translating to a street price of $350-$400. Yes, these guns are better than their $200 counterpart. The synthetic version is notorious for flimsy forends causing shifts in POI.

 

[RSVP2RIP]

Just another thing to add, if you want to tighten up pretty much any loading of 22 short, long, LR, you can get a bullet swager from D-Rock at rimfirecentral. I bought one and it really does help uniform the bullets to a consisten .224" round diameter. It does not replace quality match ammo but it does make slightly smaller groups. You can also vary the type of profile of the bullet to something like an EPS, hollow point, flat point and round nose of course. $80 shipped, and I can't recomend it enough.

 

[rangerruck]

now then, on the AE ammo; you can get a brick of hollow point leads- and they are 50 rounds per box, and they can be pretty good as well. a brick goes for about 20 bucks, maybe a buck or two less; but i deff prefer the solid copper plated, if you can find them.

 

[DasFriek]

I actually have D-Rocks accuriser, My S&W 15/22 hates it and makes the already bad shooting HV ammo even worse. Not only that it doesn't feed well at all in that gun.

But my Ruger MKIII 22/45 likes it and feeds all my accurized rounds as long as i don't over size the end. Lately i have been just shooting up a ton of accurized rounds i over sized when i first bought it just to get rid of them and didn't compare any increases in accuracy.
But i will be testing it against stock ammo in my 22/45 and the New CZ Ultra Lux i just bought.

Ill still be shooting some accurized ammo at times threw the CZ as shooting Match ammo for hours at a time can get a bit expensive. But a bolt action and 10 round clip will slow me down.
My 15/22 doesn't like copper plated ammo at all, it has the worst accuracy over lead.
But now the 15/22 will be used mainly as a 50'-75' gun so the HV ammo isnt as bad at those ranges.
Ill still pick a box of AE up as i have it locally and ill be buying many types as i can to see what the CZ likes to shoot on the cheap end of the range ammo wise.
I have a feeling the 15/22 will like the Blazer ammo decently, Or at least i hope so.

Dicks sporting goods local to me has bricks of CCI Standard Velocity for $25 a brick which should shot great threw both guns so i may have to buy 2 bricks, I know im ordering 2 bricks of Aguila Match Rifle and 1 Aguila Subsonic from Ammunitiontogo.com so i can stock up on decent mid priced ammo.
Ive found the Aguila Match to shoot as well as Wolf ME as did a friend with his Anchutz.

 

[rangerruck]

You know... the more I think about it, the more weird I think Feddy is about their AE ammo. If I rw, you can only get the copperwashed solids, in the small boxes, while the hollow point leadeds only come in the 500 round bulk pac.
I hope I am wrong, but if not, what jerkstores they are!!!

 

[winchester '97]

My Marlin 60 will shoot easy half inch groups all day sandbagged at 50 yards with federal champion solid points. My 25n will shoot one hole groups with the same ammo at the same distance, the all time best groups that rifle ever made looked like a single 22 round struck the paper for a 3 shot group at 25 yards. Until you get out to 50 yards or so i have yet to see anything an Anscutze target gun could do that a marlin 25 series cannot with the right stock and sights, one hole groups are one hole groups.
Honestly i would take a marlin over any savage rimfire any day, the actions just feel more solid and less gritty, lock down solid and smooth as butter, and if their is a better barrel design out their for a stock .22 than the micro groove im all ears.

 

[Spike89]

I shoot pretty decent sized groups out of my Marlin 795 with Federal bulk pack stuff. My best groups are with CCI 40grain standards.

 

[DasFriek]

I was given a Marlin 60 when i was 8 years old and im 39 now. I traded it in on another gun and i wished i never did now.
The thing is i didn't want another semi auto, My 15/22 can throw enough lead fast enough for me as it is. Its just only accurate with Match ammo past 25 yards.

I find it kind of odd you put your model 60 in the same group as Anschutz rifles.
But your talking 25 yards, Who shoots rifles for accuracy at that range?

Marlin makes a good gun in a bolt action also im told. But i was more impressed with what i seen and read about CZ, Its nothing personal.

If you ask me a Savage MKII could most likley beat the Marlin BA at 50 yards out of the box. The reason is the trigger.
The accutrigger on my 93BTV17 was almost perfect except i wanted it lighter and 15 minutes later it was 1lb of pull.

Spike89- I appreciate your comment, It gives me hope of my new gun doing groups my 15/22 can never do with HV ammo.

 

[22-rimfire]

This is a thing of beauty. http://www.savagearms.com/firearms/model/MARKIICLASSIC

 

[DasFriek]

Yes that gun is!
24" barrel is a broom stick. I think half the value of that gun is in the stock.
Definitely not something for a truck gun.