22lr and 25acp

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thewillweeks

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Recently got ahold of a little Lorcin L25 which made me interested in doing some real world comparisons. The first is below.

I have a lot of interesting material available to me at work as waste material, today I made up a small 4"x6" 30 layer UHMWPE armor panel. A very sloppy panel, but functional at least.

Bottom to top.
22lr 40gr sp, 4" barrel, 15 layers.
22lr 40gr sp, 16" barrel, 16 layers.
25acp 60gr fmj, 2.5" barrel, 14 layers.

Pretty comparable penetration. Most off the shelf armor is 40 sheets thick but 9mm only penetrates about half of those. This uhmwpe sheeting I have is bulk handling industry standard, not body armor standards though so different thickness may be expected. Good to see it only made it half way through though. Should be suitable material to make elbow pads and knee pads with when I get the exact format down, make the pads dual purpose to stop shrapnel.

signal-2021-09-20-180144.jpg
 
Yes, comparable penetration, but look at the expansion. The .22's would leave a wound channel twice the size... almost...
 
BillTell said:
Yes, comparable penetration, but look at the expansion. The .22's would leave a wound channel twice the size... almost...
Click to expand...
Absolutely correct, at half the cost, in a gun for times as big (whole gun, not barrel). The 25 is no powerhouse, but it did better than I expected from rumor and internet comments.

None of this meaning that you should carry either. Just researching building panels and had to start somewhere.
 
The .22 rimfire preceded the .25 cap. Browning wanted to use a .22 but rimfires of over 100 year’s ago were quite unreliable as far as ignition. He opted for reliability: small pistol primers.
Present day rimfire .22s are a magnitude more reliable. Just decide if you want 99.99% vs 95% ignition.
If you can find a brand of .22LR that run 200 rounds with zero ftf you are good to go.
 
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thewillweeks said:
None of this meaning that you should carry either .
Click to expand...

hes-right-you-know.jpg

I just didn't want to be the 1st person to post it. ;)

Strive to carry a pistol you would prefer in hand to defend yourself. (Simple goal)
For me, 22lr and 25 acp fail to meet that simple goal.
 
tactikel said:
The .22 rimfire preceded the .25 cap. Browning wanted to use a .22 but rimfires of over 100 year’s ago were quite unreliable as far as ignition. He opted for reliability: small pistol primers.
Present day rimfire .22s are a magnitude more reliable. Just decide if you want 99.99% vs 95% ignition.
If you can find a brand of .22LR that run 200 rounds with zero ftf you are good to go.
Click to expand...
CCI minimags often go 1-200 rounds zero failures.
 
Ammo is better these days, my Plastic M&P .22 Compact is 100% feed, fire, function with MiniMags and is reliable with most others after a few hundred rounds "break in."
But I still trust centerfires more and want more power.
My hideout guns are small 9mm P but I think there would be a market for a high capacity .32 in the P365 size range.
 
"I think there would be a market for a high capacity .32 in the P365 size range."

I'm pretty sure I have a ten-round magazine for my P32. That's probably not considered "high capacity" anymore, but it's a step in that direction.
 
Once upon a time, it was difficult to reliably make a spring that would work w rimfire ammo in a handgun-dimensioned gun. A center fire primer solved that problem. (Thanks JMB!) We have better spring alloys & tempering tech today.
 
i have a taurus poly pt25 25acp. i’ve never field tested it for penetration or stopping power (thank goodness) but it is 100% reliable and easy to deep ccw. its poly frame makes racking the slide doable; i always have on me a reload mag or speedloader/strip for all my ccw. a keltec p32 32acp with a ten round reload mag has replaced the pt25 as my go-to deep ccw semiauto pistol.

that said i have no issue with a 22lr cci-loaded ruger lcr or sr22 as a ccw. i stay out of feral animal habitats, two or four legged.
 
jstert said:
that said i have no issue with a 22lr cci-loaded ruger lcr or sr22 as a ccw. i stay out of feral animal habitats, two or four legged.
Click to expand...

I live in a "good area" but entertain the notion that two legged "feral animals" are mobile and may show up in my "good area".
A 22lr is not what I would want if I went to their "habitat" nor is it what I'll to bet my life on if they take a field trip to me.
The pistol I'd prefer to defend myself with is not reduced because I'm standing in a nice spot, goal of ASAP incapacitation is independent of location.
 
I have found the 25 to be vastly more reliable (ignition wise) than the 22LR in handguns, especially in the last 5 years or so. The 44 Henry 1860 and Winchester 1866 got around ignition reliability problems with a firing pin that struck the rim in two places 180° apart. If someone would make a small pistol with a firing pin like that or possibly a conversion for Ruger's little 22, it might make a difference.
 
CDW4ME said:
I live in a "good area" but entertain the notion that two legged "feral animals" are mobile and may show up in my "good area".
A 22lr is not what I would want if I went to their "habitat" nor is it what I'll to bet my life on if they take a field trip to me.
The pistol I'd prefer to defend myself with is not reduced because I'm standing in a nice spot, goal of ASAP incapacitation is independent of location.
Click to expand...

You'd think this would be obvious, but it seems to be totally lost on some people.

jstert said:
that said i have no issue with a 22lr cci-loaded ruger lcr or sr22 as a ccw. i stay out of feral animal habitats, two or four legged.
Click to expand...
Or so you think
 
A few comments...

- Yes, the .25 is more potent than internet lore likes to believe. I think you mean 50 gr, not 60 gr.

- For the most direct comparison, you need the same barrel length from the same manufacturer, like a Beretta 21A, available in both calibers. A 4" .22 is a completely different animal than a 2" or 2.5" .22.

- Guns like the Lorcin can have oversize and/or very rough barrels, which may promote very low velocity, and may be the source for some of the comically poor penetration stories.
 
For all the bad mouthing the .25acp I wouldn't want to be hit by either a .25acp or a .22lr.

I have a CZ 47 in .25acp and it is actually a pretty nice little gun. It doesn't get much range time because I don't load .25 acp. My P-32 is smaller, lighter and packs a bit more punch so I never carry the CZ. But 35 years ago when I bought it the CZ was considered a real weapon for a pocket gun.

index.php

The CZ is above the NAA Guardian and below the Keltec P-32.
 
I spy, with my little eye, an L.W. Seecamp, second from right on the bottom. That is my preferred EDC in the Summertime, when even while wearing something as light as gym shorts will hold that up. I got mine circa 1982, my buddy has the consecutive serial number. We got them at the same time. Both in .32, sporting Winchester Silver Tips, the round the gun was actually designed around, and the only recommended cartridge by the Mfg.
 
The caliber that’s got me reimagining ccw is actually .22WMR. From the moment Keltec, a brand I’ve never invested in, rolled out their PMR30 I’ve been smitten.

I certainly understand the sensibilities of my K9 with night sights for bedside duty and edc, or my M&P 40 for winter carry. Even tossing a Govt. Model .45ACP in my hunting pack makes great sense year after year, but...imagine 30 rounds of low recoil, hyper penetration vs typical calibers; enough so to zip through a “bulletproof” vest, on tap.

Raccoon attack? I’m not deaf and I’m ending the fight. Wounded deer size animal thrashing? Quick and quiet finish. Poachers taking pot shots (yes I’ve been shot at), enough rounds to send some back while making an exit. Nearly as practical a circumstance is that any family member under my roof can handle the recoil and follow-up shots should the need arise.

Im not ditching .380ACP for discreet defense but I’m teetering on the fence when it comes to adding another layer that I feel is good enough. As for ignition/reliability I’ve gone through bricks of .22 without a single issue and I drill for the unexpected.
 
BillTell said:
I spy, with my little eye, an L.W. Seecamp, second from right on the bottom. That is my preferred EDC in the Summertime, when even while wearing something as light as gym shorts will hold that up. I got mine circa 1982, my buddy has the consecutive serial number. We got them at the same time. Both in .32, sporting Winchester Silver Tips, the round the gun was actually designed around, and the only recommended cartridge by the Mfg.
Click to expand...

Sorry, unfortunately, it is a NAA Guardian in .32acp (A quality weapon in its own right but not a Seecamp). I could not afford a Seecamp at the time. I still keep an eye open for an affordable Seecamp in .380 acp as I would REALLY like to own one some day!
 
Guns 067.jpg Guns 066 (2).jpg
MikeInOr said:
Sorry, unfortunately, it is a NAA Guardian in .32acp (A quality weapon in its own right but not a Seecamp). I could not afford a Seecamp at the time. I still keep an eye open for an affordable Seecamp in .380 acp as I would REALLY like to own one some day!
Click to expand...
I still have my receipt...$324.95, and that was new from Seecamp. But I wondered how nuts I was for paying that, when I was buying Mausers for $25. Been worn a bit since. I had to wait almost a year for it from the order date. After a couple years, I was finally able to get a second magazine! Like Hen's Teeth! It IS a good gun, though. Can't hit past a few feet, but it was designed as a "Belly gun". That's why they don't even put sights on it. About that same time, Keltec had a 25 shot .22WMR that I kick myself in the ass every day for not buying. View attachment 1029147 Guns 067.jpg
 
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