788Ham
Member
Get a H&R 999 .22 revolver, one thats not expensive, but will do everything a 22 can do! Tip open barrel to load and unload, good adj. sights, 6" barrel. Good revolver.
22LR compact?
- Thread starter zignal_zero
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oldfool
Member
I agree with all who say that small frame geometry is handicapped vs large frame geometry, and rimfires need a firmer strike than centerfire to be 100% reliable, within the reliability limitations of the rimfire ammo itself, of course. But that is no excuse for accepting small frame DA triggers a lot worse than they need be.
Clean, lube, dry firing, high round count usage tend to help all of 'em, but those who begin life "better" are pert near guaranteed to stay "better" post all such improvement efforts, when done same/same.
Polishing parts may yield a better short term feel (or at least less gritty, less binding), but if/when done on a gun which is simply of poor fit using 2nd rate components, it is, at best, a dubious "solution", and too often translates into deliberately introduced premature excessive and undesirable wear. The only "good news" in that, is that very few people will ever really wear out any half-decent 22 rimfire revolver by merit of round count alone. Far too many do get damaged via neglect or abuse.
Lighter mainsprings and (more often overlooked) lighter return springs can yield a lighter trigger pull, but is no guaranteed solution either. Not even consistently so for individual guns of exact same make/model. Worth a trial, though, so long as you are aware of the possible light strike and reset issues that can result.
But getting better quality parts, fit, and finish never was a free ride, else we would all own a safe load of Freedom Arms SAs, mint condition original Dan Wessons, mint custom shop S&W k-22 masterpieces, custom shop Pythons, and Korths. I don't, most don't.
You do not always get what you pay for when you pony up the premium price, but you can almost always expect to get what you pay for when you buy cheapest available product. No guarantees, either way, but reasonable expectations do tend to follow common sense. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
If a shooter cannot afford the premium price, fine, do buy whatever you can afford, do what you can do with it, do enjoy shooting it whether it be a Heritage Rough Rider, or a Hi-Point or whatever. They may not be real pretty but they do go bang, and (outside of formal competitions) most firearms, new or old, are capable of better accuracy than most of the hands that hold them, leastways my hand.
There are, alas, some few exceptions. The bad news is that they cannot be identified up front by price alone, nor by brand alone.
But when it comes to DA revolvers, I myself have zero interest in a gun that shoots well enough SA, but has a crappy DA trigger. I have other guns to shoot SA only; I buy DA to shoot DA. More to the point I buy SA/DA to enjoy shooting both SA and DA.
I also have zero intention of ever buying a NIB gun to send to a gunsmith or buy aftermarket parts for, simply to make it "acceptable". If/when I travel that road, I would start with the best quality gun I could stretch my budget to, and then try to get on Grant Cunningham's waiting list. If a ~$300 NIB gun needs a gunsmith, I try real hard not to buy it.
good small frame triggers are a challenge, particularly yes they are
but supposing that all are bad, or supposing that all are equal, is just plain silly
Anybody who cares about small frame 22 DA trigger quality re: current NIB manufacture need not pay attention to any of us here anyway. Just find a good gun shop that stocks new S&W and new Taurus (and probably new Charter) small frame rimfires, and pull the trigger DA on every one of 'em. The differences will be obvious enough.
Same can be said of small frame centerfires and snubbies; you really need pull the trigger for yourself, and decide for yourself if the difference in feel justifies the difference in price.
But buying any firearm with expectations of having to turn it into what it ain't, is about the same as marrying some gal or guy on the thesis of turning them into what they ain't. Don't bet the farm on it.
Me, I may never stretch myself to the price of a "near mint" 651 to match my "near mint" 63, but I have picked up way too many of the NIB 94/941s in my own hand to throw down $300 on one of 'em. I will leave 'em for those that love 'em.
I do need to find the most recent reincarnation of the Charter though, to see how it feels in my own hand. Some few posts here on THR suggest worth a good hard look.
PS
not all full size frame 22 DAs are "really stiff" even with factory springs
most S&Ws (new or old) are actually quite good, and some of the older model Taurus k-clones were as well... short sight radius and too light weight is not shooter friendly, but the guns themselves "can do"
not all DA 22 revolvers are difficult to shoot well, most with half decent triggers are pretty easy to shoot DA well, brand loyalties notwithstanding
many shooters do not shoot them real well in DA, true, but then many shooters claim DA centerfire simply cannot be target shooting accurate (in some part because too many who target shoot DA insist on s-l-o-w-l-y staging the trigger in an attempt to pseudo-simulate SA, and they out think themselves, whilst waiting to feel the breakover)
taurusarmed.net just might not be the most objective possible source on Taurus guns
Same goes for Ruger forums on Rugers, or S&W forums on S&Ws, or Colt forums on Colts, etc..... you decide, but if you read one, you know, read 'em all
pull the triggers before you buy, decide what you can afford, and you will likely be happy enough with whatever you choose
Clean, lube, dry firing, high round count usage tend to help all of 'em, but those who begin life "better" are pert near guaranteed to stay "better" post all such improvement efforts, when done same/same.
Polishing parts may yield a better short term feel (or at least less gritty, less binding), but if/when done on a gun which is simply of poor fit using 2nd rate components, it is, at best, a dubious "solution", and too often translates into deliberately introduced premature excessive and undesirable wear. The only "good news" in that, is that very few people will ever really wear out any half-decent 22 rimfire revolver by merit of round count alone. Far too many do get damaged via neglect or abuse.
Lighter mainsprings and (more often overlooked) lighter return springs can yield a lighter trigger pull, but is no guaranteed solution either. Not even consistently so for individual guns of exact same make/model. Worth a trial, though, so long as you are aware of the possible light strike and reset issues that can result.
But getting better quality parts, fit, and finish never was a free ride, else we would all own a safe load of Freedom Arms SAs, mint condition original Dan Wessons, mint custom shop S&W k-22 masterpieces, custom shop Pythons, and Korths. I don't, most don't.
You do not always get what you pay for when you pony up the premium price, but you can almost always expect to get what you pay for when you buy cheapest available product. No guarantees, either way, but reasonable expectations do tend to follow common sense. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck....
If a shooter cannot afford the premium price, fine, do buy whatever you can afford, do what you can do with it, do enjoy shooting it whether it be a Heritage Rough Rider, or a Hi-Point or whatever. They may not be real pretty but they do go bang, and (outside of formal competitions) most firearms, new or old, are capable of better accuracy than most of the hands that hold them, leastways my hand.
There are, alas, some few exceptions. The bad news is that they cannot be identified up front by price alone, nor by brand alone.
But when it comes to DA revolvers, I myself have zero interest in a gun that shoots well enough SA, but has a crappy DA trigger. I have other guns to shoot SA only; I buy DA to shoot DA. More to the point I buy SA/DA to enjoy shooting both SA and DA.
I also have zero intention of ever buying a NIB gun to send to a gunsmith or buy aftermarket parts for, simply to make it "acceptable". If/when I travel that road, I would start with the best quality gun I could stretch my budget to, and then try to get on Grant Cunningham's waiting list. If a ~$300 NIB gun needs a gunsmith, I try real hard not to buy it.
good small frame triggers are a challenge, particularly yes they are
but supposing that all are bad, or supposing that all are equal, is just plain silly
Anybody who cares about small frame 22 DA trigger quality re: current NIB manufacture need not pay attention to any of us here anyway. Just find a good gun shop that stocks new S&W and new Taurus (and probably new Charter) small frame rimfires, and pull the trigger DA on every one of 'em. The differences will be obvious enough.
Same can be said of small frame centerfires and snubbies; you really need pull the trigger for yourself, and decide for yourself if the difference in feel justifies the difference in price.
But buying any firearm with expectations of having to turn it into what it ain't, is about the same as marrying some gal or guy on the thesis of turning them into what they ain't. Don't bet the farm on it.
Me, I may never stretch myself to the price of a "near mint" 651 to match my "near mint" 63, but I have picked up way too many of the NIB 94/941s in my own hand to throw down $300 on one of 'em. I will leave 'em for those that love 'em.
I do need to find the most recent reincarnation of the Charter though, to see how it feels in my own hand. Some few posts here on THR suggest worth a good hard look.
PS
not all full size frame 22 DAs are "really stiff" even with factory springs
most S&Ws (new or old) are actually quite good, and some of the older model Taurus k-clones were as well... short sight radius and too light weight is not shooter friendly, but the guns themselves "can do"
not all DA 22 revolvers are difficult to shoot well, most with half decent triggers are pretty easy to shoot DA well, brand loyalties notwithstanding
many shooters do not shoot them real well in DA, true, but then many shooters claim DA centerfire simply cannot be target shooting accurate (in some part because too many who target shoot DA insist on s-l-o-w-l-y staging the trigger in an attempt to pseudo-simulate SA, and they out think themselves, whilst waiting to feel the breakover)
taurusarmed.net just might not be the most objective possible source on Taurus guns
Same goes for Ruger forums on Rugers, or S&W forums on S&Ws, or Colt forums on Colts, etc..... you decide, but if you read one, you know, read 'em all
pull the triggers before you buy, decide what you can afford, and you will likely be happy enough with whatever you choose
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ninemm
Member
Great post oldfool. I went to my gunshop earlier this week. Held and pulled the trigger on a Taurus 94 and a S&W 617 (they didn't have a 63 in stock). The 94 I would have called anything but smooth or well made. When I handled the S&W words like precision and quality immediately sprung to mind. The price difference is substantial (to me), but I don't think I could personally be satisfied by the Taurus. Oldfool is right, you really need to check out each gun in person to make a decision for yourself.
Kendal Black
Member
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- Mar 18, 2011
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I wonder if the current company (is it still Cerberus?) still has the tools and drawings for the H&R revolvers. These were pretty good for what they cost. Might be time to reintroduce something like that. Everyone who is paying attention is thrift-minded, these days.
I think H&R fled the revolver market because of yammering about "Saturday night specials," years ago, but in fact they were way ahead of the curve on making simple stuff work right. The last time I heard of an H&R, an elderly granny hauled one out of her purse and shot one off by mistake; the hat backward gang decided that was enough and, in the words of Aristophanes, skedaddled.
I think H&R fled the revolver market because of yammering about "Saturday night specials," years ago, but in fact they were way ahead of the curve on making simple stuff work right. The last time I heard of an H&R, an elderly granny hauled one out of her purse and shot one off by mistake; the hat backward gang decided that was enough and, in the words of Aristophanes, skedaddled.
oldfool
Member
parting shot -
if you really really like the gun you choose for yourself, you will probably shoot it a lot
if you really really shoot it a LOT, it is a pretty good bet the ammo you eventually send downrange will cost more than the gun you buy
even at 2-3 cents a round, 20,000 or 30,000 rounds of rimfire ain't all that cheap, and shooting a brick at a time weekly can add up pretty quick
quicker still if your shooting buddies like it as well as you do
so, you know... try really really really hard to afford a S&W
(it is really really really hard to wear out a good one if you don't abuse it)
if you really really like the gun you choose for yourself, you will probably shoot it a lot
if you really really shoot it a LOT, it is a pretty good bet the ammo you eventually send downrange will cost more than the gun you buy
even at 2-3 cents a round, 20,000 or 30,000 rounds of rimfire ain't all that cheap, and shooting a brick at a time weekly can add up pretty quick
quicker still if your shooting buddies like it as well as you do
so, you know... try really really really hard to afford a S&W
(it is really really really hard to wear out a good one if you don't abuse it)
Kendal Black
Member
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- Mar 18, 2011
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- 1,647
The Smith seems quite affordable if you compare it to a Colt Banker's Special .22.
The Smith, if you do not monkey with the springs, will go bang when asked. I have not owned a FAIL FLAG keyhole model, so I cannot speak to that.
Further the deponent sayeth not.
The Smith, if you do not monkey with the springs, will go bang when asked. I have not owned a FAIL FLAG keyhole model, so I cannot speak to that.
Further the deponent sayeth not.
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MCgunner
Member
If I wanted a .22 handgun with a light trigger pull and didn't wanna use a revolver's SA, I'd just get a Ruger Mk 2. More bang for the buck. Yeah, they're a might large to be called a "kit gun". But, NO J frame sized .22 revolver I've ever fired had anywhere near as slick a DA trigger as my .38 caliber Taurus M85SSUL which beats every Smith I own or have ever owned. I say, if you don't wanna be out next month's mortgage payment, look at .38s. Nothing wrong with a 642, either, and they're more affordable than some of the DA .22s out there. There simply isn't a DA trigger I'd call good on a .22 revolver. Perhaps a K22 Masterpiece, old M17, but I thought we were talking compact revolvers.
My fav .22 for defense is a NAA Black Widow .22 magnum. Don't carry it very often, can usually pocket the M85 or a Kel Tec P11 or a Radom P64.
More bang for the buck. Yeah, they're a might large to be called a "kit gun". But, NO J frame sized .22 revolver I've ever fired had anywhere near as slick a DA trigger as my .38 caliber Taurus M85SSUL which beats every Smith I own or have ever owned. I say, if you don't wanna be out next month's mortgage payment, look at .38s. Nothing wrong with a 642, either, and they're more affordable than some of the DA .22s out there. There simply isn't a DA trigger I'd call good on a .22 revolver. Perhaps a K22 Masterpiece, old M17, but I thought we were talking compact revolvers.My fav .22 for defense is a NAA Black Widow .22 magnum. Don't carry it very often, can usually pocket the M85 or a Kel Tec P11 or a Radom P64.
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oldfool
Member
opening shot -
"If I wanted a .22 handgun with a light trigger pull and didn't wanna use a revolver's SA, I'd just get a Ruger Mk 2."
some part of why I own a Ruger MkII and MKIII and S&W622 and AutoMag II, and enjoy shooting my buddy's Buckmark and Ruger MK1, I guess
but I don't much like the direction the cylinder rotates on any of 'em
"There simply isn't a DA trigger I'd call good on a .22 revolver. Perhaps a K22 Masterpiece, old M17, but I thought we were talking compact revolvers."
get a K-22/17/18 and broaden your horizons (or a "k-clone" Taurus 96), if can verify excellent condition up front
the subject was by the way, [B]22LR compact revolvers[/B], not 38 snubbies, nor pistolas, nor K-frames, nor Pythons or Korths, etc.
"My fav .22 for defense is a NAA Black Widow .22 magnum."
How good is the DA trigger on that one, friend ?
(not quite as smooth as that model 85 ??)
me, I favor a Colt Government 380acp, real good SA trigger, but the DA trigger action is so doggone stiff I cannot seem to get it fired no matter how hard I squeeze
I have noticed the same problem with those MKs and Buckmarks, duuno why
but my Ruger LCP DA(O) trigger ain't nothing to brag on either, go figger
(and every time I try to load 'em up with rimfire 22 the boolits just keep falling out of 'em, I must be doing it wrong)
"I say, if you don't wanna be out next month's mortgage payment, look at .38s.'
depends on the 38, but the subject was...
"If I wanted a .22 handgun with a light trigger pull and didn't wanna use a revolver's SA, I'd just get a Ruger Mk 2."
some part of why I own a Ruger MkII and MKIII and S&W622 and AutoMag II, and enjoy shooting my buddy's Buckmark and Ruger MK1, I guess
but I don't much like the direction the cylinder rotates on any of 'em
"There simply isn't a DA trigger I'd call good on a .22 revolver. Perhaps a K22 Masterpiece, old M17, but I thought we were talking compact revolvers."
get a K-22/17/18 and broaden your horizons (or a "k-clone" Taurus 96), if can verify excellent condition up front
the subject was by the way, [B]22LR compact revolvers[/B], not 38 snubbies, nor pistolas, nor K-frames, nor Pythons or Korths, etc.
"My fav .22 for defense is a NAA Black Widow .22 magnum."
How good is the DA trigger on that one, friend ?
(not quite as smooth as that model 85 ??)
me, I favor a Colt Government 380acp, real good SA trigger, but the DA trigger action is so doggone stiff I cannot seem to get it fired no matter how hard I squeeze
I have noticed the same problem with those MKs and Buckmarks, duuno why
but my Ruger LCP DA(O) trigger ain't nothing to brag on either, go figger
(and every time I try to load 'em up with rimfire 22 the boolits just keep falling out of 'em, I must be doing it wrong)
"I say, if you don't wanna be out next month's mortgage payment, look at .38s.'
depends on the 38, but the subject was...
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OP
OP
zignal_zero
Member
exactly! thank you. also, thanks for taking the time for the long post you typed out
i know all about S/A's, i've had more than a couple Single Six's over the years. i also know about the Ruger autos, just picked up a MKIII 22/45 Factory Threaded (named "Ghost") today and am shipping out a Stainless MKII Competition to a member on here that wants it more than i do.
what i wasn't clear on was the current options for double action 22 revolvers the gun i'm trying to decide on isn't even for me. i carry either a full size 1911 or a 22 auto, depending on my mood and where i plan on going. it's for my wife who's a little bit recoil sensitive. i might skip the idea all together and, instead, go with this plan - start reloading some really really light loads for her SP101 and slowly, without telling her, start increasing the charge until she's comfortable with hot loads and doesn't even realize why
frankj
Member
This is my first visit to this forum, so don't hesitate to point out anything I might be doing wrong. I can take the criticism!
I ended up with a 622 H&R. (I know it's ugly and simple, but I kinda like it.)
Unfortunately, it needs a new mainspring. This model must be one of the old ones, since the hammer and 'firing pin' are one piece.
Any suggestions as to where to look for a part?
I ended up with a 622 H&R. (I know it's ugly and simple, but I kinda like it.)
Unfortunately, it needs a new mainspring. This model must be one of the old ones, since the hammer and 'firing pin' are one piece.
Any suggestions as to where to look for a part?
I found this little 8 shot, late 50's vintage Iver Johnson (pretty similar to the H&R's) at a local gun show last year for a touch over $100. Fun little shooter and well made for the price. Very solid little .22 and about the same size as a J frame (more or less)
I'm not going to try and convince anyone that the trigger is nearly as good as my Pre War Colt Officers Model Target .22, or a K-22 but it's not awful either. Certainly not any worse than any of the new center fire Charters I've handled
Goes bang every time.
I'm not going to try and convince anyone that the trigger is nearly as good as my Pre War Colt Officers Model Target .22, or a K-22 but it's not awful either. Certainly not any worse than any of the new center fire Charters I've handled
Goes bang every time.
Kendal Black
Member
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bcp280z
Member
Gunblast has a good article about the Smith, http://www.gunblast.com/SW_317.htm
TGReaper
Member
This class of revolver has to be right at the top of the got to have list.
I have no idea where you might find one but I managed to find a nickel plated 2 inch model 34. It is amazing how much use I get out of this,probably more that I use my mod.17.
TGR
I have no idea where you might find one but I managed to find a nickel plated 2 inch model 34. It is amazing how much use I get out of this,probably more that I use my mod.17.
TGR
BCRider
Member
Zero, there's really no need to build her up to some +P sort of loading. But if you can make up some mouse load 148HBWC rounds and wean her up to at least a stronger load of 148HBWC loads that she's comfy with then for MOST uses that would be enough. After all, 95% of any confrontation will end when the perp is looking down a hole at a shadowy nose of a bullet. And if it does come down to actually pulling the trigger there's some decent supporting info around here to suggest that a well placed 148HBWC will slow or stop most attackers if put in the right place.
Hondo 60
Member
+1 on the Beretta Bobcat.
It is very compact & very easily hides in a pocket.
But they're fickle when it comes to ammo.
I've found Fiocchi 40gr High Velocity ammo works great.
And my LGS has it for $2.69/50.
CCI mini-mags, stingers & velocitors work too, but are much more expensive
It is very compact & very easily hides in a pocket.
But they're fickle when it comes to ammo.
I've found Fiocchi 40gr High Velocity ammo works great.
And my LGS has it for $2.69/50.
CCI mini-mags, stingers & velocitors work too, but are much more expensive
Attachments
oldfool
Member
which way does the cylinder on that Bobcat turn ?
same as a Colt, or same as a S&W ?
same as a Colt, or same as a S&W ?
Hondo 60
Member
no it's not a revolver, but it is a compact .22lr
harqueb.us
Member
Holy cow now I need a S&W 63. Thanks guys.
I briefly owned a Taurus 94. I didn't get through the first cylinder before it started binding up and needing help rotating. I took it back to the guy who sold it to me and he gave me my money back. I like that guy a lot but I have a different impression of Taurus now.
gb6491
Member
I've been very happy with mine
Regards,
Greg
harqueb.us
Member
Very nice.
lloveless
Member
I thought S&W made a kit gun as a model 64 in .22 lr?
ll
ll
Stainz
Member
The S&W 64 is a SS version of the infamous original .38 S&W Special M&P, the Model 10. The current 'kit' .22 is the 317K, a 3" Al airweight 8-shooter with a HiViz front and adjustable rear sight. For my money, the SS version - my 3" 63 shown on the previous page - makes more sense.
Stainz
Stainz
My wife loves my S&W 317. It's the gun that finally got her to take up shooting with me, and now she's even considering something "a little more powerful". The little gun does everything it was designed to do very well.
The only issue I have with it is the spent casings tend to stick in the cylinder when it's used as a range toy.
I should say why she loves it.Light as a feather, no recoil, simple to operate.
The only issue I have with it is the spent casings tend to stick in the cylinder when it's used as a range toy.
I should say why she loves it.Light as a feather, no recoil, simple to operate.
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