.22LR conversion kit in AR-15 - accuracy and function?

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Greywolf

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OK, I was thinking of getting a .22LR conversion kit (Ceiner?) for my 16" barrel, 1:7 twist barrel AR-15. I was wondering what sort of accuracy I could expect compared to, say, a 10/22. Also, since I have a suppressor and like to shoot 60 grain Aguila SSS (which my 1:9 twist 5.5" barrelled 10/22 handles with no keyholing) I was wondering if using the conversion kit and my 1:7 twist 5.56mm barrel would cause any issues with keyholing when using the 60 grain Aguila (don't want to ruin my suppressor).

Thanks!

And no, I can't ask this question over at ar15.com as I have been banned over there. :cuss:
 
My understanding is that the AR15 barrel has the wrong bore diameter and twist rate for the .22 lr ammo. It will shoot thru the barrel but don't expect "match" accuracy.
 
You know what else goes really good with a .22LR AR-15?

A tactical assualt wheelbarrow and some peanut butter mixed with tang! :what: :barf:
 
Keyholing results from an under stabilized bullet. A higher twist rate, 1:7 instead of 1:9, shouldn't cause keyholing problems
 
I've known more than one High Power shooter who uses a .22 upper to practice at indoor ranges during the winter.

Lately, I've been wondering if it wouldn't have been better to go with a flat-top .22 LR upper and a lower with a Jewel or JP trigger in it for competing in The Sportsman's Team Challenge. The sport is currently dominated by tricked out 10/22's, but I suspect that a properly built .22 AR would be able to hold its own, or even surpass the 10/22's.
 
DPMS makes an M4 style .22 LR upper. I have one. It's pretty accurate -- approx. 1" groups at 50 yards (and that's with a red dot, I'm sure I could do better with a scope). Reliability has been 100%. I have maybe 1000 rounds through it including cheap stuff like Blazer and not a single malfunction. Currently only 10 round magazines are available, but DPMS advises 25 rounders will be available by late summer. The upside of course is that you can twist off the flash hider and install your suppresor.

I'd definitely go with a dedicated upper for suppressor use. 1:7 definitely won't stabilize regular 22s and its not even correct for SSS. I don't know if that directly translates in baffle strikes or not, but why take the chance.
 
I've been, recently, using a 30 year old version of the kit that Ciener sells. Curiously, in all the time I've owned it, I never shot it for accuracy at 50 yards. I just assumed (I know!) it would not be accurate. (and logically...well so much for logic.)

I have done so now. I shot CCI Mini-mag, Winchester, Remington standard velocity and their Eley target ammo. I used two rifles so far; RRA Government Model AR with EOtech sight and Colt Match Sporter with Leupold CQB-T sight. Five round groups run from 1.5 to 2" at 50 yards firing with rifles supported by my gun bag. I intend to mount a True-Glo 4 to 16x target scope and shoot it properly to determine just how well the kit will do. (I have witnesses to the groups.) I'd have bet serious money this combination would not do as it did. The RRA was the better of the two as it has the better trigger.

I found that the kit doesn't quite fit in every AR as the bolt sometimes "sticks" back to the rear when chambering the first round.(It doesn't do so when shot however.) Some light filing and polishing of the kit's rails etc., solved this.

Another next step is to get a kit from Ciener and do the above.
 
I think 22 LR has a 1:16" twist normally. The 1:7" would not be all that great for accuracy, imho.
 
Better to have a dedicated 22 LR upper. The .223 bore diameter is too big for a .22 LR and so you get a lot of leading and less than optimal accuracy.
 
I'd definitely go with a dedicated upper for suppressor use. 1:7 definitely won't stabilize regular 22s and its not even correct for SSS. I don't know if that directly translates in baffle strikes or not, but why take the chance.
Click to expand...

that's totally inaccurate.

a 1:7 twist stabilized every 22lr round I've ever fired, from colibris to 60g SSS.

you won't have any problem with baffle strikes. I have thousands of rounds through my ceiner and 223 suppressor.

I found the accuracy acceptable. It's not MOA or anything. I'd say you won't have any problem keeping 1" groups at 50 yrds with wally world bulk packs.

further, you'll be impressed with the low noise shooting SSS through a 223 can. they make a VERY satisfying thwack when they hit the target.

The only real problem i found was that 22lr ammo put a lot of grit in the upper receiver and that caused greatly accelerated wear on my bolt carrier (completely removed the finish and put a mirror polish on all the bearing surfaces)

edit: i definitely recommend using the ceiner instead of a dedicated upper, because you get to use your regular optics and suppresor and other gadgets.
 
Many Moons ago I had the opertunity to run an ROTC class through with the Cobray adaptors from an Army Guard unit.

The Guard happily loaned me the "useless" adaptors for my use with ROTC students and M-16A1 rifles. I know, not the tight 1:7 twist asked about but bear with me. We had six lanes on an indoor 50 foot range. My goal was to teach the kids to zero the rifles. We got a copy shop (rememebr many moons ago everyone did not have an HP scanner/printer on their desks) at 66 percent so the zero target would look close to proper through the sights at 50 feet and ajustments via the squares would work. For giggles we made up some subtense targets for 100 meters and that had a thin outline for the off set, much like on the 25 meter qualification and practice targets used later so that the kids could see how well their zero would have worked in the field.

The kits provided minute of bad guy at the faux 100 meter target and gave the kids great confidence in their own abilities (they had basic marksmanship training with the 513T earlier)

Using our clear group checker on some of the groups conviced me that the Cobrays were better than a Nylon 66 at least.

We used the government supplied taraining ammo of that time which was (not to sound like a broken record) Winchester Super X solids and I did not note that the rifles themselves were much different as to how dirty they were.

I was told the CObrays were totally unreliable. I found rather that they required frequent cleaning. In preperation for the class I and a couple of other rifleteam members put a bit over 200 rounds through one before we had a failure to feed. I know that is not much compared to that Nylon (not sure I ever did clean more than the bore on that) or to a Ruger 10/20 or about any successfull.22LR semi auto. TO insure reliability during the class my assistants and I cleaned and lubed all eight units and placed them in eight M-16A1s. We then put six rifles on line (rememeber we had only six lanes). After each group fired their first 15 rounds and got their first zero we would pull two rifles from the line and replace them with the clean units and then clean the dirty ones during the shooting. Thus alternating the usnits magazines and rifles we never had a unit fire more than 45 rounds between cleanings and ZERO malfunctions. When the kids came in for their second opertunity to zero and fire at the subtense target that day we did the same thing.

The following week they each got to shoot a total of fifteen rounds at standing and kneeling just to get a feel for the rifle in those positions at two seperate aiming points and only got their groups measured using outlines of subtense 100 meter targets on clear plastic.

Thanks to the .22 Adaptors the kids were quick to get a zero and had good hits at 100 meter targets with M193 ball when we went to a local police range later.

BTW Florida State ROTC took the marksmanship ribbon at Ft. Bragg Advanced Camp that year. I think Adoptors can work quite well as a training tool.

Later in Europe I found that the 2nd ACR at taht time was cycleing Infantry guys through an indoor range at Fulda using the adaptors and one of the folks reported they cleaned the adaptors between 100 and 150 rounds and had no reliability problems.

I have heard many reports of problems with adaptors and A2 type guns, but not tried one in a 1:7 twist gun myself. I do have to wonder how much ammo testing the folks reporting these mainly accuarcy and barrel fouling concerns did. I know at least one was shooting his (then)$700 rifle and $200 adaptor with whatever the cheapest lead outside lubed bulk .22LR was available at Wallyworld last time the was there. I rather imagine that Winchester Super X or CCI minimag or some other copper washed bullet might have less leading and less grunge left behind.

I note a couple of upstream posts from folks that have had good experiences with 1:7 twists barrel above.....there you go.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
I have a Ceiner .22Lr kit for cheap drill practicing with my AR15's. I have 3 complete AR's and a 4th in the building stages.
The ceiner kit pays for itself after a few range sessions where you burn thru 500 rds of 22LR, total cost $ 9.50 versus 500 rounds of 5.56 at around $200!!!
I have used my .22 ceiner kit with a 1 in 7 twist 20", 1 in 9 twist 16", and 1 in 12 twist 20" barrels, all work just fine, no real depreciation in accuracy potential at 25 yards. At 15 yards with my M4 with an Eotech 552, I can shoot at humanoid targets and make smiliey faces, shoot the eyes and nose, etc. The ceiner kits runs very well as long as it is libeally lubed prior to using, a spray of CLP on the rails and the moving surfaces on the ceiner bolt and its good to go. I have more problems with ammo issues than rifle issues. Lots of dead primers, etc. I use Remington thunderbolt, Federal value pack, Rem subsonics, CCI Stinger, CB longs, etc. When using CB longs, its like using a suppresed AR, the report is so minimal that my Walther BB gun makes more noise, a cheap mans suppressed-ish rifle!:evil:
 
Just picked up a Ciener kit last week. Shot 500 rounds in my Colt Sporter with 20" HBAR upper. I had exactly 10 rounds jam. Accuracy was much better than I expected. Off hand I could hit a 2 liter soda bottle filled with water at 150 yards. Needless to say I was very impressed.

I then shot 5 rounds of .223 after swaping out the bolt and mag. and cleaning was a breeze. Can't wait to shoot it agin this weekend again.
 
are there any options other thant he ciener kit that might be better?
i ask this only because i view anything that cheaper than dirt sells with a good bit of suspicion... their stuff used to be good but lately theyve been selling a lot of gimmicks. same for spg (actually worse)
 
My Ciener kit is VERY accurate when fired in my RRA's (1-8). I won't give 100yd group sizes, cuz everyone thinks I'm lying...:)
 
I'm running a Ciener conversion in my Colt 6920, and usually have my Gemtech G5 on the end of it. Extremely reliable system and in a few thousand rounds I've never had any issues.

At 200 yards (usually plinking) I can hit clays on the berm no problem.

If you get the Ciener, you may also want to get the lakeside springs - I put the new spring in my conversion and have never had an issue with it.

If you're running an ACOG, I found that the 800 yard hashmark is the proper drop for a 200 yard range when using .22 :)
 
The barrel is the wrong size,the twist rate is wrong,the bullet has to jump 1"+ just to get to the rifleing . These are all reasons why the Ceiner shouldn't work---------but it in fact does work pretty good. Most of my experience is with 1/9 chrome lined uppers . There is quite a difference in accuracy between different ammp types,best results have been with standard velocity target type ammo. I have been happy with CCI STD and similar types.
To the fellow who has been thinking about the Jewell trigger--didn't work at all for me. Most of the target type AR trigger sets have a lighter hammer fall (lighter springs) and will not be happy with the Ceiner. RRNM has been decent for me but the Jewell was a no-go.
Throw a Ceiner into a AR with a stock trigger and it will have similar accuracy as a bone stock 10/22. Take a AR with a RRNM trigger and choose your ammo carefully and it will hold its own with a Ruger 10/22T or other tricked out 10/22, in other words pretty darn good.
A tricked out dedicated upper from White Oak will be an actual match grade gun but at 5x the cost it becomes a special purpose unit.
To the original question I have little experience with a 1/7 twist upper. The 60gr Aguilla ruptured a couple of cases out of the first five shots so I don't mess with that out of my semi auto 22s. I do like most of the aguilla rimfire ammo and use a bunch of the HV and standard velocity stuff
 
I don't know about the Ceiner kit, but my dedicated .22 upper has been working well. A standard .223 Suppressor can be mounted on a .22 upper cause' of the same thread size. Some uppers (accuracy speaks, Spikes tatical's) can shoot one quarter inch at 50yd
For anyone intrested, here is a list of companies that offer dedicated .22 uppers.

Model “1” Sales
Bushmaster
Spike Tatical
Accuracy speaks
DPMS


I am not sure about Bushmaster offering their upper anymore but i think they do. Spikes tatical offers a lother walther barrel upgrade, Accuracy speaks uses Douglas Premium barrels, and model "1" Sales offers a stainless bull barrel. All of these would be accurate to compete even against the best of the 10/22s.

By the way, how much would a Ceiner kit cost?
 
Anyone know when the CZ upper is coming out? Also, for dedicated uppers, what are the price ranges on them?
 
Is the barrel leading just an annoyance, or does it have the potential to damage the rifle if you don't clean the barrel well prior to firing .223 through it?
 
Keyholing results from an under stabilized bullet. A higher twist rate, 1:7 instead of 1:9, shouldn't cause keyholing problems
Click to expand...

Too fast a twist rate can cause the rifling to strip lead from the bullet. Little twist is imparted to the bullet and it keyholes.

I'm running a Ciener conversion in my Colt 6920, and usually have my Gemtech G5 on the end of it. Extremely reliable system and in a few thousand rounds I've never had any issues.

At 200 yards (usually plinking) I can hit clays on the berm no problem.
Click to expand...

Have you considered exhibition shooting as a career option? I'd pay to see that.

David
 
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