22lr long range ammo

[C-grunt]

Ive recently been playing around with my new Bergara B14R. It's now sporting a Razor Gen II 3-18 which is a far superior optic than the Nikon FX1000 I had on there before.

So far Ive been using CCI Mini Mags. They shoot right around 1-1.5 MOA at 50 yards. Im happy with that kind of accuracy for what Im using the rifle for. However Im starting to have issues at longer ranges. Im seeing a good amount of vertical dispersion at range that Im not seeing at 50 and 100 yards. Im assuming this is a muzzle velocity variation issues. You can see in this video from today at the range that I had a couple rounds that were good wind calls, shoot significantly high. Like a full Mil high.

So what ammos should I be looking at to have a better experience at range?

Obligatory photos from today as well. Other rifle is a recent purchase, Remington 700P in 223.



20230213_122857 by chase, on Flickr


20230213_132104 by chase, on Flickr

20230213_122906 by chase, on Flickr

 

[3Crows]

You may find better longer range accuracy with standard velocity ammunition. The reason being is that the super sonic high velocity ammo like the MiniMags transitions back to subsonic speeds or supersonic transition inside of 100 yards but is still supersonic at 50 yards. Some think the transition may affect accuracy, seems reasonable. I find MiniMags to be very accurate at 50 to 60 yards but note groups tend to grow disproportionally as range to target increases to around 100 yards. I find standard velocity accuracy remains consistent or more so. I claim no expertise.

 

[C-grunt]

You may find better longer range accuracy with standard velocity ammunition. The reason being is that the super sonic high velocity ammo like the MiniMags transitions back to subsonic speeds or supersonic transition inside of 100 yards but is still supersonic at 50 yards. Some think the transition may affect accuracy, seems reasonable. I find MiniMags to be very accurate at 50 to 60 yards but note groups tend to grow disproportionally as range to target increases to around 100 yards. I find standard velocity accuracy remains consistent or more so. I claim no expertise.

Ive heard it both ways. Actually watched a couple videos on it as well.

But the fact that most, if not all, of the really good 22lr match ammo is subsonic might be a clue.

 

[Doug444]

Not trying to push anyone away from THR, but there's a LOT of discussion on this topic (like, daily) over at RimfireCentral.com. And they kind of specialize in this sort of thing. Some very knowledgeable folks over there, even if they do say so themselves ().

 

[C-grunt]

Not trying to push anyone away from THR, but there's a LOT of discussion on this topic (like, daily) over at RimfireCentral.com. And they kind of specialize in this sort of thing. Some very knowledgeable folks over there, even if they do say so themselves ().

I totally forgot about that forum. I think i have a profile there already. I don't think I've been on that forum in line 10+ years.

 

[Varminterror]

There’s a lot of “measuring” happening on this topic at RFC.

It’s pretty straight forward - supersonic 22LR drifts more than sub-sonic, which means supers are more sensitive, inherently, which is why all of our match ammo is sub-sonic.

I do most of my 22 LR and ELR shooting with CCI SV, and a lot of Eley Club and Black. Mini-mags are pretty notorious for inconsistent MV’s, and again, are more sensitive in wind.

 

[3Crows]

Some very knowledgeable folks over there, even if they do say so themselves ().

Yep .

I do like CCI SV. I know it is not the very best or match quality but it usually shoots decent in most rifles and is usually available.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Yep .

I do like CCI SV. I know it is not the very best or match quality but it usually shoots decent in most rifles and is usually available.

Yup, 90% of the performance of Tenex at 10% of the price.

 

[Walkalong]

.22s can be funny, need to try a handful of different ammo and see what it likes.

SK Standard plus yellow box, SK Rifle Match red box, Lapua Center-X are all worth trying as well.

 

[12Bravo20]

I still need to find a standard velocity round that my Savage MkII likes. And CCI Standard is not it. My rifle is more accurate with CCI Mini Mags out to 100 yards than it is with CCI Standard. Now my AR22 with a 16" CMMG heavy barrel does well with CCI Standard.

Oh and there was a very lengthy "discussion" on RFC about high velocity vs standard velocity out to 200 yards or more. That conversation started when a video was posted by an Aussie stating the high velocity does better for him.

 

[jmorris]

So what ammos should I be looking at to have a better experience at range?

All of it. A friend and I spent the better part of a year playing with .22’s at 300 yards. What works great in one might not be the best in another and you can’t know until you try.

I did buy all of 1 lot of cheap bulk ammunition, I found that did better than ammunition costing 10x the price, in my best rifle for the task. Still have around 20k rounds of it.

Not sure if they still do it but I think champions choice used to sell small quantities of ammunition you could test and later buy from the same lot#.

Lots of rounds seem to fall apart at the range they go trans sonic but can come back together afterwards, all will be there well before 300 yards for sure.

 

[3Crows]

I still need to find a standard velocity round that my Savage MkII likes. And CCI Standard is not it. My rifle is more accurate with CCI Mini Mags out to 100 yards than it is with CCI Standard. Now my AR22 with a 16" CMMG heavy barrel does well with CCI Standard.

Oh and there was a very lengthy "discussion" on RFC about high velocity vs standard velocity out to 200 yards or more. That conversation started when a video was posted by an Aussie stating the high velocity does better for him.

Interesting, both of my Savage Mark II rifles get along with the CCI SV rather well. Room for improvement but decent enough. If I were to ever purchase a higher end target specific rifle I would expect better but I would probably feed it match ammo, the real stuff. I would almost be prone to say that if I had a rifle that would not shoot CCI SV well enough to be fun it might have to go live with one of those fellers on RFC .

 

[12Bravo20]

CCI Standard is the only decent standard velocity ammo I have tried other than some cheap bulk stuff. Now if my MKII does not shoot any of the higher end match grade ammo then I will have to reconsider using it for long range precision shooting and relegate the rifle to 100 yards or less and/or for hunting.

I don't have any target photos of 100 yard targets but here is one of a group at 50 yards shooting CCI Mini Mags. I had sighted the scope in at 25 yards and did not make any adjustments for 50 yards. I was only wanting to see the group size. The photo is of a 5 shot group. So I know the rifle is capable of small groups with the right ammo.

 

[jmr40]

I've shot a lot of sub 1" five shot groups at 100 yards with CCI 36 gr HP ammo, well under 1/2" at 50 yards. I find it more accurate in my rifles than CCI 40 gr FMJ. I can get a TINY bit better accuracy with standard velocity Target ammo at 50 yards. But when I start shooting at longer ranges, I get a lot more drop with the slower ammo. Plus, the tiny bit better accuracy doesn't justify the greater cost to me.

I did this at 230 yards with a Tikka T1 and CCI Mini-Mags. I did miss 2 of the 8 shots and the bigger hit was from a 223 fired earlier in the day.

I'm using a scope with dials and I've run out of adjustment at that range. I had a mild crosswind and am using the 4th link of the left chain as my aiming point even with the scope maxed out on elevation. With the scope I have I wouldn't have enough adjustment to go to 200 yards with standard velocity ammo.

For what I do, with the gear I have, I'm happy with CCI Mini-Mags. When I factor in cost and bullet drop it's a good compromise for me.

 

[daniel craig]

I always like the CCI stingers they're lighter weight bullet with just a little bit larger of a case and they shoot fast and flat. But I've never tried to do anything more than a hundred yards with them.

 

[N555]

The only one I have tried that shoots about 1moa consistently is that agulia 60gr subsonic.
Completely unexpected result.
It never shot good in a handgun at lease for me.

 

[12Bravo20]

The Aguila 60Gr stuff will definitely have more of a rainbow trajectory at longer ranges.

 

[Varminterror]

The big problem with great groups with 22 ammo at 25 or 50yrds is the same big problem with small groups in centerfire rifles at 100-200 yards - and 100yrds with 22LR is kinda like 300 yards with a common centerfire… we’re dominated at short range by other factors than those which dominate at long range. When we get to 300-400 with a 22LR, we can’t hide vertical dispersion due to velocity spreads any more. When we start getting 15-20moa in wind corrections, a typical +/-2mph wind call precision starts meaning 10-20” of error potential, and groups start getting wide. Throw >75fps in ES on top, things get more and more hairy…

And then we start talking about supersonic vs. sub-sonic wind drift: at 400yrds in 15mph, CCI Mini-mags have 12” more drift than SV… that’s 15% increased sensitivity to wind, so we have a tougher time driving. Can we hit targets and can we shoot small groups? Sure. But more often than not, shooting small is just a game of reducing sensitivities and reducing inconsistencies, so having that extra drift on the Mini-mags just means an extra 3” of wind error potential. It does trade for ~10moa less drop compensation, which comes with its own error margin (range estimation and MV consistency), so we kind of choose whether we want taller groups or wider groups. Typically, range estimation and velocity consistency are more precise than wind estimation, so picking subs means our groups won’t get much taller than supers, but subs WILL get notably narrower in the wind (standard error sensitivity analysis), so subs are favorable.

The Mark & Sam video, unfortunately, raised eyebrows of a lot of folks which don’t do much 300+ yard shooting with 22’s, which elicited exasperated groans from folks which do…

 

[12Bravo20]

Tight groups at 25 and 50 yards is easy with a good shoot 22 rifle and good ammo. I haven't had a chance to shoot past 100 yards in a while to see what my groups do with standard and high velocity ammo. I mentioned in that one thread over on RFC, I want to test my rifle (and skills) with both standard and high velocity ammo at 200 yards or more to see what does best for me and my setup. I'm sure that standard velocity will do better at the longer ranges but won't know until I try. I was surprised that my rifle prefers high velocity over standard velocity (with ammo I have tried) out to 100 yards.

There are pros and cons to using either type of ammo at longer distances.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm sure that standard velocity will do better at the longer ranges but won't know until I try.

I did the same thing when I started shooting long range with 22LR. I even wasted a lot of time chasing HV ammo because it shot better in my rifle, until I figured out, on score sheets, it really didn’t.

The caution I would offer to this: any time anyone themselves successful in new territory, but doing it very differently than everyone else who are successful in that task, they need to REALLY evaluate whether they’re truly finding scalable and repeatable success - especially when the means of success defies proven science… Maybe another consideration: the reason ALL competitive LR and ELR shooters use SV ammo is NOT “because they’ve never tried HV ammo.”

Equally, take a look at the 50 @ 200 targets on RFC. It gets pretty hard to hide real results in 50 shot groups.

Sensitivity analysis is a wonderful tool. When we compare the wind drift error influence to that of raw group size, velocity consistency, and range reading error, the results are pretty telling. We can see that the difference between a raw 1moa rifle and a 1/2moa rifle is almost zero difference at 300-400. We can see that velocity consistency influence of a common 40fps ES for SV is 3.5moa, whereas for HV 40fps ES would mean 2.0moa, +/-3/4moa difference. We can also see there is 47” more wind drift in a 15mph wind at 400yrds, so a +/-10% windage error (better than most people can estimate at 15mph) will mean potential for an additional +/-1.2moa difference, almost twice the influence as the velocity spread.

And THAT’s why LR and ELR competitors are using SV ammo…

 

[12Bravo20]

Either way it will be fun testing standard velocity versus high velocity and gives me trigger time. So that is a win win for me.

 

[DustyGmt]

I haven't meticulously documented accuracy from the various .22lr ammo that I use but CCI mini mags and stingers are of the least accurate of the premium .22lr ammo lineup. I get alot better accuracy from Aguila standard velocity and it's cheaper too.... I would try some different Aguila types to see which one your gun likes, along with CCI standard Velocity LRN's. Wolf Match is good too in my experience. I haven't tried the higher end SK or Eley but those might be worth a shot too if you're looking to shrink groups but I've found Aguila SV to be inexpensive and accurate in my .22lr's

 

[Walkalong]

The caution I would offer to this: any time anyone themselves successful in new territory, but doing it very differently than everyone else who are successful in that task, they need to REALLY evaluate whether they’re truly finding scalable and repeatable success

Yep, if 99% of the crowd who's been doing it for awhile are doing "X", I would sure try "X" before something else.

That's all I did when I started PRS, keep it simple and do what they were doing, then of course maybe tweak this or that to suite, but still, try "X" first.

 

[d2wing]

Once you get beyond 50 yards it's accuracy and cheap ammo don't go together for me. CCI SV is kinda bottom rung practice ammo. I like Lapua, Norma, Eley and SK . They do make ammo for long range in some brands. You can get lucky with CCI and other lower price ammo like Fed Auto match in your particular rifle but you won't know until you actually shoot different ammo at longer range. The better the rifle the more it likes match ammo in my experience. The best rifles only chamber match ammo. Like others said there is a lot of info on RFC including ammo tests. Which kinda proves you have to test yourself. Mini Mags aren't even trying. Bulk ammo except Federal Auto Match isn't either.

 

[12Bravo20]

Every rifle will like a different ammo and this is especially true when it comes to 22LR. The best thing to do is try as much different ammo that you can until you find what your rifle shoots best.

Last time I bought Federal Auto Match was during the obumma 22lr shortage and that was some of the worse ammo I have ever bought. Accuracy was bad and to make things worse, that stuff would not even function in my Marlin Model 60 and Ruger 10/22. And if those two rifles won't cycle with a certain ammo, then you know it's junk. And I am NOT saying every lot of Auto Match is bad either. But the lots I had back then were definitely bad.

Again each rifle is different. I happen to get excellent results at 100 yards and under with CCI Mini Mags in my Savage MkII BTVLSS. One of my AR22's shoots best with CCI Standard and my other AR22 does best with CCI AR Tactical. My Romanian M69 trainer does very well with Federal Champion 510. So it is best to try different brands of ammo.