.22s to learn on...

[pax]

Hey all,

1) If you were buying a .22 handgun specifically to teach beginners how to shoot, which gun would you get and why?

2) If you were buying two such guns, one wheelgun and one slidegun, which two guns would you choose?

3) If you were buying the guns specifically to teach women how to shoot, would either of your choices in question 2 change? If so, which gun(s) would you get for your woman students and why would you choose them?

pax

 

[Dave Markowitz]

1) If you were buying a .22 handgun specifically to teach beginners how to shoot, which gun would you get and why?

A S&W Model 17 or 18. The K-Frame revolver with good grips fits a lot of people. They guns tend to be accurate, have good sights, and have good triggers. Manual of arms for DA revolvers is very simple.

Second choice would be a Ruger New Model Super Single Six with the .22 LR cylinder. The NM has setter sights than the Old Model SS. The SS in either variation is better than the Bearcat, IMO, since the latter has a fixed rear sight milled into the topstrap.

Minimum barrel length for revolver or auto should be 4", so you have a decent sight radius. And anything over 6" - 6.5" may be too long for a newbie.

2) If you were buying two such guns, one wheelgun and one slidegun, which two guns would you choose?

Smith as above for the wheelgun, and a Browning Buck Mark for the auto. The Buck Marks have good sights, excellent triggers, are accurate, and reliable with the right ammo.

3) If you were buying the guns specifically to teach women how to shoot, would either of your choices in question 2 change? If so, which gun(s) would you get for your woman students and why would you choose them?

No, but I've know a couple of women who found it easier to hold my 4.5" Micro Buck Mark than a K-Frame, largely due to the balance. Luckily, I have a Smith Model 18 and the Browning so when introducing a new shooter, I can use whichever gun they are more comfortable with.

 

[sm]

I use/used:

Model 18
Buckmark
Ruger 22/45

No doubt the model 18 for all students male/female and kids of both genders a winner. Easy to transition same folks to use 4" K frame with target loads( model 10 in my case). Probably the reason why so many, especially women chose a used Police model 10 short bbl for CCW, and a 4" K frame for HD ( or similar- model 64,19, 15, 66).

Buckmark has better trigger out of the box. Women liked it "cute" , "sexy" , "heft"...looks and would not stop shooting. By far the winner.

The 22/45 we smoothed the trigger. A few women preferred the "thinner" grip feel of 22/45, this was the 4" bbl model btw. Kids ( 5 and up) better adapted to the thinner grips also. If one does a 22/45 do tweak on the trigger, to smooth out...no need to get all wacko with new triggers and such.

Not on your list. Fun gun for safety and kids, and women had a ball with, especially with daughters...old Remington 514 single shot 22 rifle. $ 40 pawn shop spl. No mags , no tubes to feed. Used 22 shorts, longs and LR. Iron sights and balloons...

 

[Preacherman]

For an entry-level training .22LR revolver, I'd go for the Taurus Model 94. Cheap, fairly robust, and the trigger can be smoothed out by any competent gunsmith. Also, you can get two of them for the price of a used S&W .22...

As for pistols, I agree that the Browning Buckmark or Ruger Mk. II are good choices. However, they do not approximate a defensive handgun. As a pure training/fun gun, they're great: but if you're teaching defensive shooting, you might want to consider something more in that line. I've used .22LR conversion kits on Glocks and on 1911's with great success here - once the trainees were accustomed to shooting the .22 conversion, they could translate to a "real" round out of the same gun with virtually no problems. You have a G27, don't you? Why not look at the Advantage Arms conversion unit for it (NOT the Ciener unit - lousy customer service!). See
here for more details. I have their G19/23 unit, and love it to bits.

 

[BluesBear]

For a wheel gun I'd go with a 4" K frame S&W or a 4" Colt Diamondback.

For a self-shucker the Ruger MKII is good.

For a woman in addition to the 4", I'd think about a 4" J frame S&W

 

[Majic]

1) S&W M18 with a set of target and Magna stocks.
4 inchers balance well and the different stocks would make it fit a variety of hands. Plus I beleive that the revolver is a better teaching platform.

2) S&W M18 for the revolver and a 4" Buckmark for the pistol choice.

3) No.

 

[VictorLouis]

What Dave, sm, and Majic said.

 

[dav]

Sorry, pax, but especially for a woman, one is not going to do. (you should know that!)

They need to choose. At least in my limited experience no woman will be satisfied with what she is told she has to use.

You're just going to have to get several and let them try them all.

I wanted my wife to like the 22/45 so I could use it without losing the .45 grip angle. Nooo, she just *had* to have the Beretta Neos. Pretty gun, but its natural point position for me would put bullets in the ceiling.

I'm sure it is not widespread, I have only taught two new shooters who were female, but neither like revo's. Both settled on semi's.

 

[twoblink]

Have you considered a .357Mag revolver?

Put 38Spl Wadcutters into something like a Ruger GP100, and there's almost no recoil on barrels 4" or more..

That said..

I like the 22/45 better than the MkII because the mag release is where it should be relative to centerfire guns..

 

[4v50 Gary]

For semi, I'd go CZ Kadet on a 9mm or 40 S&W. It's a two-fer.

For revolvers, I like Diamondbacks, but S& W Model 18s are more affordable.

 

[10-Ring]

I have two 22lr handguns, one Taurus revolver & the other a Ruger semi auto. My son learned to shoot using the semi auto & I taught myself how to shoot DA revolver using Taurus.
If I were to do it again, I might pick up a S&W 617 just for the nicer trigger & the better fit & finish but really, as a teaching tool, the Taurus was fine. What can I say about the Ruger? It always goes bang, above average accuracy & a pretty good value (price wise).

 

[BryanP]

I have two 22lr handguns, one Taurus revolver & the other a Ruger semi auto.

Gee, that sounds familiar.

Pax, like many I'll recommend what I have experience with. A 4" Taurus 94 revolver and a 5.5" Ruger 22/45 were both very affordable and have served me well. The trigger on the 94 isnt the greatest but that can be fixed, and for quite a bit less than the cost difference of the S&W.

 

[Ford]

I picked the Kimber Rimfire. I wanted a 1911 that was dedicated to the .22 so that I could try to break some bad habits that I was developing. I have over 1,000 rounds through it so far. This gun has been great. A wonderful learning tool for me.

 

[Valkman]

One thing I'd never do is pick a gun for my wife! When she wanted to buy her first gun she looked around and chose a Ruger MkII in Stainless with the lightest barrel available. She just shot it yesterday for the first time and loved it!

 

[GySgt]

Teach women to shoot? Oh no, not again.....

Seriously, I'm partial to the Ruger Single-six...

And probably the Ruger 22/45

 

[Beetle Bailey]

For semi, I'd go CZ Kadet on a 9mm or 40 S&W. It's a two-fer

I'll second that. Uh, the only woman who shot my CZ Kadet Kit (in a CZ75 Compact) liked it better than my buddy's Ruger 22/45 with a trigger job. She said "I like the CZ better. And it's the same as shooting the 9mm, huh? Cool." Well, sorta. I did notice that the Ruger is a bit lighter, BTW. Is that a benefit or a hinderance for training?

 

[Hal]

Model 18's are great guns. So are the Smith Model 17's. The biggest problem is that you can't just wander into the local gun shop and pick up one of those $200 Model 18's you always hear about on the web. $350 to $500 is more like it depending on the condition. Even that's iffy. I looked for close to 2 years for a decent model 18 and the only one I found was priced in the $400 range.

Twoblink - - makes a valid suggestion about the .357mag. Unlike the Smith Model 18, you usually CAN walk into most gun shops an pick up a $250 Model 19 or a $200 Model 10.

Follow this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?threadid=51762

For the same amount of money you're likely to spend on an 18, you can buy a 19 AND a reloading setup. The advantage here is that you won't have to have a trigger job done or apologize for the lousy trigger on your trainer - you can start off with mild loads and work in some standard .38spl loads on the exact same platform. You'd also be in an excellent position to indoctrinate new shooters into reloading.

 

[yzguy]

it would depend on why you were teaching them....

if just for gun intro, plinking, safety and general practice, then probably the 22/45. It's cheap (so you don't have to worry about them messing it up or anything) accurate, fairly light, and the controls are closer to what you find on most handguns. The MKII would be second only because it is heavier (which may not make a difference) safety is not the easiest to reach, and has a weird mag release.

if this was just an introduction to get them to a defensive hand gun, then maybe a .22 conversion for that gun (glock, CZ, 1911...) or at least as close to it as you can, so as not to confuse them with differences...

 

[Dr.Rob]

Ruger Mk 2 Target model, Ruger Single Six.

Haven't seen a DA 22 revolver I liked.

 

[Chris Rhines]

1) If you were buying a .22 handgun specifically to teach beginners how to shoot, which gun would you get and why?

A MkII Ruger, with a standard-taper 5.5" barrel and adjustable sights. Very good balance, light, reliable, and amazingly accurate. If the trigger wasn't good out of the box, I'd buy a Volquartsen (sp?) trigger kit as well.

2) If you were buying two such guns, one wheelgun and one slidegun, which two guns would you choose?

I wouldn't start a beginner out on a wheelgun. Handguns are already hard enough to shoot, without adding in bad ergonomics and 10# triggers. If a student of mine really had their heart set on a revolver, I'd go to the store and pick out the .22 with the smoothest, lightest DA trigger stroke. Something like a used S&W kit gun would be pretty good, but again, I'd have to see it first.

3) If you were buying the guns specifically to teach women how to shoot, would either of your choices in question 2 change? If so, which gun(s) would you get for your woman students and why would you choose them?

Nyet.

- Chris

 

[Majic]

wouldn't start a beginner out on a wheelgun. Handguns are already hard enough to shoot, without adding in bad ergonomics and 10# triggers.

Ergonomics can be changed with different stocks on a revolver, something a pistol cannot do.
As far as a 10lb trigger, have you ever heard of cocking a hammer and shooting single action?

 

[Chris Rhines]

Ergonomics can be changed with different stocks on a revolver, something a pistol cannot do.

Be serious. I've changed the stocks multiple times on just about every semi-auto I've ever owned. In general, revolvers have inferior handling properties to semi-autos no matter what you do with the stocks.

As far as a 10lb trigger, have you ever heard of cocking a hammer and shooting single action?

I have, yes. And that's fine for basic familarization and plinking. But if my student's interests include any type of pistol competition (to say nothing of defensive shooting) then they're going to have to learn to fire multiple shots. Rapidly. That's far easier with a bottom-feeder.

I'm not trying to slag revolvers here. If you prefer them to self-shuckers, that's fine. But wheelguns are harder to shoot, and I don't think it's a good idea to handicap a new shooter right off the bat.

- Chris

 

[Majic]

Rapid firing of multiple shots are not required in all types of handgun competetions. There are all sorts of games out there. Look beyond your own interests (defensive shooting is not the only reason to shoot a handgun).
It's also fine that you prefer pistols as they have their place in the world of handgunning also, but a revolver's grip can be changed from a small concealable configuration to a large target configuration by the use of different stocks. The pistol is handicapped in that the magazine well is larger than the revolver's grip frame. A large framed revolver can wear a grip like a Smith's Magna stock or you can install oversized target stocks. A double stack service pistol will have a thick grip no matter what stock you put on it.
Just different schools of thought, but alot of shooters don't find the revolver harder to shoot than a pistol. In fact alot of shooters prefer the revolver. It may be harder for you, but not everybody. The new shooter should decide that themselves.

 

[BluesBear]

At the range I use to teach, we had 2 4" Colt Diamondbacks, one with small grips and one with regular, for beginners. After they became familiar with them they graduated to a 4" .38 Special Diamondback.

IMHO the biggest benefit to starting a beginner with a .22 revolver is that it doesn't matter what ammo you use.

Colibri, CB Cap, Short, Long, Long Rifle, Subsonic, Stinger, it don't matter a hill of beans to a revolver. It'll shoot them all without a hiccup.

You want to check for flinching? Just mix in an empty case or 2.

Also the shooter gets to handle the revolver during loading. The more thay handle a gun the more familiar it becomes. Besides some .22 pistol magazines are just a plain pain to load.

When using a DA revolver there is less chance of a AD. Have them start out single action but don't have them cock it until they're ready to fire.

Opening the cylinder renders it harmless. Unless they drop it on their toe.

Teach them the basics with the revolver, then move up to bigger calibers and semi-automatics.

A sports car will start, stop and corner better than the family sedan. But which do you want your son or daughter to learn to drive first?

I only had about 150 women go through my Ladies Beginners classes so I really don't know what's best for everybody. I just know what worked for me. Nobody cried, no one was hurt, I was never cussed out and no one asked for their money back. As far as I could tell everyone had fun.

YRMV

 

[sm]

BluesBear,
I believe the only difference in our experiences is you used Colts and I used Smiths.

I always start with the revo in 22lr. Always transition to revo in .38 spl. Had 6-8 exact model 10s, with various grips/sizes/wood/rubber available.

THEN start the semi lessons from Buckmark to again a variety of semis in various calibers and sizes...to better fit student/determine what a student best with.

Bunch of model 10s ( and similar) chosen for CCW and HD...many whom just knew they end up with bottom feeder at the beginning...but didn't.