2400 loads in between 38spl and 357mag

[Az Bob]

Berry‘s are plinking grade bullets, that only get worse the harder you push them. I like them much better with smaller charges of fast powders than large charges of slow powders. Not to mention a 5.0 grain charge of W231 will give you twice as many rounds per pound of powder than a 10.0 grain charge of anything else.

Berry‘s are plinking grade bullets, that only get worse the harder you push them. I like them much better with smaller charges of fast powders than large charges of slow powders. Not to mention a 5.0 grain charge of W231 will give you twice as many rounds per pound of powder than a 10.0 grain charge of anything else.

10/4 on the plinking range bullets. I have been loading them to near max 38spl/ low end 357mag loads per data sourced for v-N340 using Berry's 158grnFP/TP. MAX 38SPL is 6.8grns @1089fps. Starting 357mag is 7.1 @1188 fps.

 

[jmorris]

You are probably getting close to their limit with the 357 mag load.

When they come apart you can see it if you shoot a target just far enough away muzzle blast doesn’t destroy it. There will be a pinwheel of spray around the hole.

 

[P Flados]

You indicated you were interested in reducing cost. The VV powders seem to be a good bit more expensive.

I see that I inadvertently dropped 340 from the first chart I posted. The N340 would take a predicted 6.4 gr to get the 1050 fps from a 4" revolver. At a reference cost of $50 per pound, it works out to $0.044 per round.

 

[Az Bob]

You indicated you were interested in reducing cost. The VV powders seem to be a good bit more expensive.

I see that I inadvertently dropped 340 from the first chart I posted. The N340 would take a predicted 6.4 gr to get the 1050 fps from a 4" revolver. At a reference cost of $50 per pound, it works out to $0.044 per round.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You indicated you were interested in reducing cost. The VV powders seem to be a good bit more expensive.

I see that I inadvertently dropped 340 from the first chart I posted. The N340 would take a predicted 6.4 gr to get the 1050 fps from a 4" revolver. At a reference cost of $50 per pound, it works out to $0.044 per round.

It looks like you also don’t have Accurate No.7?

At $30/lb and around 9.0gr to get 1000fps from the Berry’s 158gr RFN/TP in a 4” barrel, that’s around $0.038 per cartridge.

In my experience using mostly either a 6-1/2” Ruger Blackhawk, a 5-1/2” Great Western II/Pietta, and 4” Colts Official Police revolvers, No.7 does tend to perform pretty well - about like Herco - in an actual gun. However, I’m quoting approximated book numbers from the Western v. 8.0 for reference purposes, not my testing.

 

[Az Bob]

I was thinking that if I could source a similar performance powder at a lower price point that would be great. As I am on a limited budget. Like I had said being new to loading that was a powder that was listed on my Lee Classic loader load chart that was available at my local Sportsmans Werehouse.

 

[CoalTrain49]

My experience with 2400 and .357 is it really doesn't work that well until you get up around mid range loads. Below that you'll get unburned powder and poor performance in shorter barrels. The Hornady manual lists something like 10.5 grains as a minimal load. Should be about 12 grains IMO.

I haven't tried any other powder to reduce the velocity but I'm sure the suggestions above with some faster powders will get you the required results. I just load hot 38 spl for my model 19's and brush my cylinders when I clean.

 

[P Flados]

It looks like you also don’t have Accurate No.7?

I have become a "fan" of AA powders based on numerous recent cost evaluations even though I have not used them myself. My last purchases were bulk orders in 2020 and were mostly milsurp with some Shooters World.

I left out AA#7 from the first table on purpose as QL showed it as needing 9.5 gr. AA#5 is shown with 7.2 gr.

For "just shooting", very few people do honest cost evaluations of the powders they use. I understand that some shy away from faster burning powders in magnum cartridges, but I see this as a valid concern only if someone is trying to achieve "near full power" magnum loads. I also understand that a lot of folks do not have good access to comprehensive "mid range" data as most published data is really geared to get the most velocity possible without exceeding pressure limits.

For all those posters that are recommending powders needing more than 8 gr to get 1050 fps from a 4" 357 revolver, can you provide a good reason not to consider the following available and "reasonable cost" powders in the AA#2 to AA#5 burn rate range:

AA#2
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol
Ramshot Silhouette
Shooters World Auto Pistol
Win 244
AA#5

Again, each of these is expected to provide a reasonable mid range velocity at a chamber pressure of less than 75% of the SAAMI limit.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I have become "a fan" of AA powders based on numerous recent cost evaluations even though I have not used them myself. My last purchases were bulk orders in 2020 and were mostly milsurp with some Shooters World.

I left out AA#7 from the first table on purpose as QL showed it as needing 9.5 gr. AA#5 is shown with 7.2 gr.

For "just shooting", very few people do honest cost evaluations of the powders they use. I understand that some shy away from faster burning powders in magnum cartridges, but I see this as a valid concern only if someone is trying to achieve "near full power" magnum loads. I also understand that a lot of folks do not have good access to comprehensive "mid range" data as most published data is really geared to get the most velocity possible without exceeding pressure limits.

For all those posters that are recommending powders needing more than 8 gr to get 1050 fps from a 4" 357 revolver, can you provide a good reason not to consider the following available and "reasonable cost" powders in the AA#2 to AA#5 burn rate range:

AA#2
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol
Ramshot Silhouette
Shooters World Auto Pistol
Win 244
AA#5

Again, each of these is expected to provide a reasonable mid range velocity at a chamber pressure of less than 75% of the SAAMI limit.

Okay. Didn’t mean to touch a nerve.
I actually did previously recommend No.2 and No.5, along with No.7 and 9. The OP has all of the above available locally so, why not?

No.7 downloads cleanly and since the OP is also looking for good carbine loads, a versatile powder like No.7 made good sense to me.

But you’re the professional so I’ll leave.

 

[Az Bob]

I have become "a fan" of AA powders based on numerous recent cost evaluations even though I have not used them myself. My last purchases were bulk orders in 2020 and were mostly milsurp with some Shooters World.

I left out AA#7 from the first table on purpose as QL showed it as needing 9.5 gr. AA#5 is shown with 7.2 gr.

For "just shooting", very few people do honest cost evaluations of the powders they use. I understand that some shy away from faster burning powders in magnum cartridges, but I see this as a valid concern only if someone is trying to achieve "near full power" magnum loads. I also understand that a lot of folks do not have good access to comprehensive "mid range" data as most published data is really geared to get the most velocity possible without exceeding pressure limits.

For all those posters that are recommending powders needing more than 8 gr to get 1050 fps from a 4" 357 revolver, can you provide a good reason not to consider the following available and "reasonable cost" powders in the AA#2 to AA#5 burn rate range:

AA#2
Shooters World Ultimate Pistol
Ramshot Silhouette
Shooters World Auto Pistol
Win 244
AA#5

Again, each of these is expected to provide a reasonable mid range velocity at a chamber pressure of less than 75% of the SAAMI limit.

Thanks for your input. I have seen AA#5 & Win 244 locally. Will have to check them out to see if that will fill my needs.

 

[Cheesemaker]

..... But you’re the professional so I’ll leave. ....

Good info but - Is this The Highroad?

 

[AJC1]

Feel free to check the math on 8.4 grains of Silhouette... 1.86 cents a shot.

 

[AJC1]

It looks like you also don’t have Accurate No.7?

At $30/lb and around 9.0gr to get 1000fps from the Berry’s 158gr RFN/TP in a 4” barrel, that’s around $0.038 per cartridge.

How about 3.85 cents per load.... mines cheaper

 

[IWAC]

I tried the 357 Magnum "Skeeter Load"; magnum brass, Small Pistol Primers. 13.5 gr. 2400 Didn't like it very much. Settled on lower loads...about 900-1000 fps. Enough speed to ensure expansion from "stout" bullets, likr XTPs, and about the max effectiveness of cast bullets, and much more pleasant to shoot.

 

[AJC1]

I tried the 357 Magnum "Skeeter Load"; magnum brass, Small Pistol Primers. 13.5 gr. 2400 Didn't like it very much. Settled on lower loads...about 900-1000 fps. Enough speed to ensure expansion from "stout" bullets, likr XTPs, and about the max effectiveness of cast bullets, and much more pleasant to shoot.

Weird my cast load is 13.8 of 2400. I haven't developed a jacketed 2400 load yet...

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

How about 3.85 cents per load.... mines cheaper

Yup. WAP is good stuff and Silhouette is supposed to have better flash suppression. I’ll be testing it out with my .38Spl SP 110gr Kinetic HE loads. WST is a little fast for my velocity goal but I’m starting with it anyway (I’ve got it and it’s a good powder for snubbies). Going up the chart: W231, W244, AutoComp, WAP (Silhouette), and W540 (HS-6). I may pick up some W572 for trial if I find it locally or put in another powder order after the new year.

For the OP, as you can see, sometimes having a variety of powders is a good thing.

 

[P Flados]

But you’re the professional so I’ll leave.

I am not a "professional" anything now days, just a retired old geezer. However, I was an engineer that understands what a thorough evaluation based on facts looks like.

And do not get me wrong. I like AA#7 for applications where the numbers work out.

The Op expressed interest in 357 loads with mid range pressures to protect a K frame, reduced cost and indicated he would accept mid range velocities. He later indicated he shops over the counter at Sportsman Warehouse.

With that last piece, I went ahead and looked up on-line prices at Sportsman Warehouse. In order to pull in a couple of more powders, I dropped the QL velocity to 1050 fps and ran a new table. I then combined the charge info with the price info. VV N340 price was assumed as I did not actually find that one.

Cost    Cost
$/lb    $/each
33.99    0.028    Accurate No.2         
39.99    0.030    Alliant GREEN DOT     
37.99    0.031    Hodgdon HP38           
36.99    0.034    Ramshot Silhouette     
35.99    0.035    Accurate No.5         
36.99    0.037    Hodgdon Longshot       
44.99    0.037    Alliant UNIQUE         
37.99    0.039    Hodgdon HS-6           
39.99    0.040    Ramshot True Blue     
44.99    0.040    Alliant HERCO         
52.99    0.041    Vihtavuori N320       
52.99    0.045    Vihtavuori N340       
35.99    0.047    Accurate No.7         
49.99    0.048    Alliant POWER PISTOL

And the QL table for the above:

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 158, Hornady SWC 10408
Useable Case Capaci: 15.716 grain H2O = 1.020 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.7 inch = 144.8 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.2                       59.7      5.7     0.37    1050   100.0    22189    4097   0.684
Alliant GREEN DOT                   65.9      5.3     0.34    1050   100.0    26515    3559   0.653
Hodgdon HP38                        47.2      5.7     0.37    1050   100.0    25195    3615   0.659
Ramshot Silhouette                  51.0      6.4     0.42    1050    99.9    20729    4338   0.706
Accurate No.5                       45.8      6.8     0.44    1050    94.1    19399    4850   0.723
Hodgdon Longshot                    48.1      7.0     0.45    1050    97.8    19928    4636   0.719
Alliant UNIQUE                      61.6      5.8     0.37    1050   100.0    20608    4313   0.719
Hodgdon HS-6                        50.4      7.2     0.47    1050    96.3    19816    4706   0.720
Ramshot True Blue                   47.5      7.0     0.45    1050    97.9    20133    4594   0.715
Alliant HERCO                       68.8      6.3     0.41    1050    99.6    19864    4590   0.732
Vihtavuori N320                     63.2      5.4     0.35    1050   100.0    26789    3492   0.652
Vihtavuori N340                     62.4      6.0     0.39    1050   100.0    21737    4065   0.696
Accurate No.7                       58.0      9.1     0.59    1050    80.0    17645    5436   0.759
Alliant POWER PISTOL                58.7      6.7     0.44    1050    90.2    18289    5166   0.743

 

[lordpaxman]

Thanks for your input. I have seen AA#5 & Win 244 locally. Will have to check them out to see if that will fill my needs.

Either one does nicely in .38 and it’s big brother. If I had to choose one of them, I’d start with W244, but by all means if you see both it wouldn’t hurt to get both. You mentioned trying some N330. N320 is even faster and produces soft recoil impulses compared to other fast powders.
There was recently another thread that delved into cost analysis and it gets quite interesting when talking about the price of things, but given the bullets and primers seem to be the biggest part of the equation, powder is lower on the list. If you want the most economical powder, look at Titegroup, a great powder, but be advised it’s Uber fast and Uber dense so you need to be mindful of charges and bullet seating depth.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I see many people trying to reduce the velocity of .357 loads. I tried it myself but didn't want to buy any more powder for that one application. I still use 2400 for M-1 carbine loads.

I'm not buying anymore powder at todays prices. I have about 20 lbs of various powders and that will have to do. My solution was to use Alliant American Select, which I have an abundance of. Not the best solution but it works. It reduces .357 velocity down to around 800 fps.

The OP might also try Unique if you can find it. That makes a 1000 fps load quite nicely.

 

[AJC1]

I am not a "professional" anything now days, just a retired old geezer. However, I was an engineer that understands what a thorough evaluation based on facts looks like.

And do not get me wrong. I like AA#7 for applications where the numbers work out.

The Op expressed interest in 357 loads with mid range pressures to protect a K frame, reduced cost and indicated he would accept mid range velocities. He later indicated he shops over the counter at Sportsman Warehouse.

With that last piece, I went ahead and looked up on-line prices at Sportsman Warehouse. In order to pull in a couple of more powders, I dropped the QL velocity to 1050 fps and ran a new table. I then combined the charge info with the price info. VV N340 price was assumed as I did not actually find that one.

Cost    Cost
$/lb    $/each
33.99    0.028    Accurate No.2         
39.99    0.030    Alliant GREEN DOT     
37.99    0.031    Hodgdon HP38           
36.99    0.034    Ramshot Silhouette     
35.99    0.035    Accurate No.5         
36.99    0.037    Hodgdon Longshot       
44.99    0.037    Alliant UNIQUE         
37.99    0.039    Hodgdon HS-6           
39.99    0.040    Ramshot True Blue     
44.99    0.040    Alliant HERCO         
52.99    0.041    Vihtavuori N320       
52.99    0.045    Vihtavuori N340       
35.99    0.047    Accurate No.7         
49.99    0.048    Alliant POWER PISTOL

And the QL table for the above:

Cartridge          : .357 Magnum (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .358, 158, Hornady SWC 10408
Useable Case Capaci: 15.716 grain H2O = 1.020 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.590 inch = 40.39 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.7 inch = 144.8 mm

C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate No.2                       59.7      5.7     0.37    1050   100.0    22189    4097   0.684
Alliant GREEN DOT                   65.9      5.3     0.34    1050   100.0    26515    3559   0.653
Hodgdon HP38                        47.2      5.7     0.37    1050   100.0    25195    3615   0.659
Ramshot Silhouette                  51.0      6.4     0.42    1050    99.9    20729    4338   0.706
Accurate No.5                       45.8      6.8     0.44    1050    94.1    19399    4850   0.723
Hodgdon Longshot                    48.1      7.0     0.45    1050    97.8    19928    4636   0.719
Alliant UNIQUE                      61.6      5.8     0.37    1050   100.0    20608    4313   0.719
Hodgdon HS-6                        50.4      7.2     0.47    1050    96.3    19816    4706   0.720
Ramshot True Blue                   47.5      7.0     0.45    1050    97.9    20133    4594   0.715
Alliant HERCO                       68.8      6.3     0.41    1050    99.6    19864    4590   0.732
Vihtavuori N320                     63.2      5.4     0.35    1050   100.0    26789    3492   0.652
Vihtavuori N340                     62.4      6.0     0.39    1050   100.0    21737    4065   0.696
Accurate No.7                       58.0      9.1     0.59    1050    80.0    17645    5436   0.759
Alliant POWER PISTOL                58.7      6.7     0.44    1050    90.2    18289    5166   0.743

I really enjoy how your discussion is data driven. I have found pricing to vary wildly by geographic location, but one could easily dr the numbers to their own situation.....

 

[AJC1]

Yup. WAP is good stuff and Silhouette is supposed to have better flash suppression. I’ll be testing it out with my .38Spl SP 110gr Kinetic HE loads. WST is a little fast for my velocity goal but I’m starting with it anyway (I’ve got it and it’s a good powder for snubbies). Going up the chart: W231, W244, AutoComp, WAP (Silhouette), and W540 (HS-6). I may pick up some W572 for trial if I find it locally or put in another powder order after the new year.

For the OP, as you can see, sometimes having a variety of powders is a good thing.

I did "cheat" and use the pv 8 pound jug, but that's how I buy it. Might be more fair to include shipping divided amongst several 8s...

 

[buck460XVR]

I haven't played with 2400 that light in .357 Mag cases, and not at all in .38 Spl. I wasn't excited about 2400 in .357 Mag until right at max.

^^^Same here. I really like Unique under a 158 grainer for light to moderate loads in my lever .357.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I did "cheat" and use the pv 8 pound jug, but that's how I buy it. Might be more fair to include shipping divided amongst several 8s...

IIRC one hazmat fee is good for 48 lbs of powder. An individual probably won't buy that much and it would be hard to put together an order like that for many individuals because of the limited supply of different powder at a single source.

One of the reasons I stopped reloading shotgun ammo. The component availability and prices were too big of an obstacle. If I went looking for some of the powder I normally use today, I wouldn't be able to find it. I don't expect the powder and primer situation to get better, only worse.

 

[P Flados]

... If you want the most economical powder, look at Titegroup, a great powder, but be advised it’s Uber fast and Uber dense so you need to be mindful of charges and bullet seating depth.

I use TiteGroup and it is on the low end for cost per round (compare at $0.026), but I do not recommend it for new reloaders in 38 / 357. I would recommend it for 9mm and other autoloader stuff where double charges are less of a concern.

Other really fast powders that run about the same cost per round as Titegroup are Promo, Nitro 100 and Clays if you can find them. All 4 are really a little fast for 357 if you want mid range for both velocity and pressure.

And as previously mentioned, purchased bullets and primers are bigger fractions of total ammo cost. One easy savings option is bullets. The Berrys are going to run a little over $0.18 each where a coated commercial cast can be had for a little over $0.13 each. Savings on primers is all about buying in bulk with either "getting lucky" on a local over the counter supplier or using something like ammoseek to watch for deals. Occasional "free hazmat" sales are also something to watch for.

Example: Using ammoseek, I found Ginex can be had for $0.06 each delivered with a purchase of 5000.

 

[AJC1]

Your decimal

I use TiteGroup and it is on the low end for cost per round (compare at $0.26), but I do not recommend it for new reloaders in 38 / 357. I would recommend it for 9mm and other autoloader stuff where double charges are less of a concern.

Other really fast powders that run about the same cost per round as Titegroup are Promo, Nitro 100 and Clays if you can find them. All 4 are really a little fast for 357 if you want mid range for both velocity and pressure.

And as previously mentioned, purchased bullets and primers are bigger fractions of total ammo cost. One easy savings option is bullets. The Berrys are going to run a little over $0.18 each where a coated commercial cast can be had for a little over $0.13 each. Savings on primers is all about buying in bulk with either "getting lucky" on a local over the counter supplier or using something like ammoseek to watch for deals. Occasional "free hazmat" sales are also something to watch for.

Example: Using ammoseek, I found Ginex can be had for $0.06 each delivered with a purchase of 5000.

Your decimal is floating. 2.6 cents not 26 cents. The entire load is 26 cents.