25-06 cases still jamming in the chamber

[Jim K III]

My father-in-law gave me a 25-06 Remington 700 before he died. Along with the rifle I got around 400 rounds of spent cases (various mfgs) from him. In a previous post, I mentioned that some of these rounds, after sizing them, jam in the chamber to the point where I have to tap the bolt handle backward with a rubber mallet to extract the round.

Some folks here mentioned that I may need to push the shoulder back. After trying that, with no luck - they still stuck in the chamber - I decided to check all several hundred sized cases to separate the ones that stuck. Only about 100 cases chambered successfully, all the others stuck.

I compared measurements between the good and bad cases, as much as I can with a standard micrometer, and the only noticeable, and repeatable, difference is the diameter measurement near the base of the case. See the chart showing .470.

All the bad cases measure .468 or greater.
All the good case measure .466 or less.

Now my father-in-law had another 25-06 rifle that he used for many years along with the one he gave me. I'm wondering if the empty cases he gave me were used in both rifles, and the ones that are jamming in my rifle were actually shot in his other rifle.

Some questions:

1. Is .002 difference enough to cause these cases to get stuck in the chamber?

2. Could the chamber in the two rifles be just different enough to be a concern?

3. Will using a small-base sizing die on the cases that jam squeeze the base diameter down enough to make a difference here?

The other image shows two cases. The left one jams in the chamber and measures .468 at the base, the right one chambers slick and smooth and measures .466.

Thanks!

 

[Howa 9700]

Have a 6mm Rem that a buddy of mine loaded some rounds for (before I started doing my own). A good half of them failed to chamber. I thought it was the bullet jamming into the lands. Turns out the shoulder on the cases were too long. He used new brass and didn't size it. Even new brass was too long at the shoulder. I pulled it all down, resized the brass to 2 thousand under the length I had determined from brass fired in that rifle, and now it all fits.

If new factory ammo fits and fires in the gun, measure shoulder setback of once fired cases to use to setup your sizing dies. Small base die should not be needed for a bolt gun.

And if cases have stretched too much, and need to be trimmed, that may be the problem too. And of course there is jam. Bullets seated too far out into the lands can prevent a round from chambering.

And I may be the only guy on the planet who does this, but I have a go or no go gauge for every caliber of rifle I am loading for. Using a Hornady head space comparator, I can get a baseline measure from the go / no go gauge, and from that, can tell where may chamber was cut relative to SAMMI specs. The Rem 6mm has a big chamber. Factory ammo has to really blow out there to fit it. A 308 is only 3 or 4 thousands over SAMMI min. Factory ammo in it hardly moves at all.

 

[NMexJim]

Brass fired in one rifle will not necessarily fit into another rifle of the same caliber, but that should go away with full-length resizing.

If your full-length sizing die is set correctly, it should not make any difference about which shell went in which rifle. I'm assuming you are full-length resizing? You did mention bumping back the shoulder, but I still don't know what your procedure to do that is or what tools you have to determine how much set-back you've given the brass. If you're just starting out, I'd recommend that you not worry about shoulders and just full length until you get into the groove.

I'd recommend that you fit just the case into the chamber after your full-length size. If it's tight and the bolt won't close easily, then something is wrong with the resize set-up.

I don't think you need to worry about small base dies at this point. If you were using a semi-auto of some kind, then, yea, maybe. I'd put that on the back burner for a bit.

Now, it might be possible that you could be bulging the case during bullet seating. That's a bit of a reach but one never knows.

By chance, do you have any idea how many times these cases have been fired? They can lose ductility after so many rounds depending on the caliber. They'll start to spring back from sizing, but chambering a few after sizing should tell you if that's a problem.

If you would detail your reloading process, I think this forum might be able to be of more help. I would like to know what dies you're using and how you're setting them up especially the sizing die. Do you have the instructions for those dies? Photos are always a bit helpful for us.

 

[243winxb]

The left case is scrap, just by looking at the neck. Dont size with carbon on the neck/shoulder. Brass showes the rifle chamber needs cleaning and the fl die also.

Wnen fl sizing, at top of stroke, make sure the shell holder is in FULL contact with the bottom of the die. Look with a flash light.

What brand of press, dies, lube?

 

[Kaldor]

Great info already posted by Jim and 243.

If you do not own a comparator this would need a good time to buy one so you can measure case length at the shoulder.
Once you have that, take one piece that does chamber properly, size it, trim it, load it, fire it, and measure it at the shoulder. Lets just say that number is 3.00". At that point you would would likely want like a 5 thou shoulder bump to ensure than the ammo chambers correctly, so your length at the shoulder would be 2.905". 5 thou is a good number for a hunting rifle. Once you have determined that the brass sized at 2.905 will chamber correctly, you can lock your sizing die down, and leave it there forever.

If your cases have excessive size at the base, a full length sizing may or may not fix the issue depending on how many times the brass has been fired, how worn or tight the chamber is, etc. A small base die may solve the issue, but you may see alot of spring back at the thick part of the case.

At that point if the brass jsut doesnt want to cooperate, you have a couple options. First, just recycle the stuff that isnt cooperating and keep the stuff that is. I would probably try to keep matching headstamps at least. Secondly, buy a 100 pieces of brass, scrap all the old stuff, and move on with your life. Its really not worth fighting with and in a hunting rifle a 100 pieces of brass might last you 3-5 seasons depending on your volume of shooting before you even need to think about prepping it.

 

[Jim K III]

The left case is scrap, just by looking at the neck. Dont size with carbon on the neck/shoulder. Brass showes the rifle chamber needs cleaning and the fl die also. View attachment 1173640

Wnen fl sizing, at top of stroke, make sure the shell holder is in FULL contact with the bottom of the die. Look with a flash light.

What brand of press, dies, lube?

Appreciate the advice. It and all others like it are now in the recycle can. Chamber and die to be cleaned next. I'm using a Lee Classic Turret press with RCBS dies and Unique Case Lube.

 

[Jim K III]

Great info already posted by Jim and 243.

If you do not own a comparator this would need a good time to buy one so you can measure case length at the shoulder.
Once you have that, take one piece that does chamber properly, size it, trim it, load it, fire it, and measure it at the shoulder. Lets just say that number is 3.00". At that point you would would likely want like a 5 thou shoulder bump to ensure than the ammo chambers correctly, so your length at the shoulder would be 2.905". 5 thou is a good number for a hunting rifle. Once you have determined that the brass sized at 2.905 will chamber correctly, you can lock your sizing die down, and leave it there forever.

If your cases have excessive size at the base, a full length sizing may or may not fix the issue depending on how many times the brass has been fired, how worn or tight the chamber is, etc. A small base die may solve the issue, but you may see alot of spring back at the thick part of the case.

At that point if the brass jsut doesnt want to cooperate, you have a couple options. First, just recycle the stuff that isnt cooperating and keep the stuff that is. I would probably try to keep matching headstamps at least. Secondly, buy a 100 pieces of brass, scrap all the old stuff, and move on with your life. Its really not worth fighting with and in a hunting rifle a 100 pieces of brass might last you 3-5 seasons depending on your volume of shooting before you even need to think about prepping it.

I agree with your advice completely, especially the last couple of sentences. I'm not a hunter and therefore will not be shooting this rifle very much at all. It's the only rifle I have with a scope on it and I just wanted to be proficient with it in case I ever do need to rely on it. At my age, 70, if I ever do get into hunting it will probably because I survived the zombie apocalypse and I need some fresh dinner.

Therefore, I'll scrap all the brass that doesn't chamber. If I feel the need for more later on I'll purchase new brass. I don't reload enough, nor do I have the desire, to move into the comparator world and all that entails.

 

[BBarn]

I wouldn't scrap the brass just yet. Set it aside instead. You may discover the problem with the brass after gaining more experience reloading for that gun. 25-06 brass (and many others) are very difficult to find at the moment.

 

[Slamfire]

You did not mention if the cases are all factory 25-06 or are using necked sized 30-06 cases, such as an author in Handloader did. If the case necks are thick, you might be pinching the bullet in the chamber.

If you can find a small base die in 25-06, buy it. Small base dies will reduce the case head 0.002" more than standard sizing dies, and that does make a difference. Every caliber I can find a small base die, I buy it. Brass has to be smaller than the chamber or it will stick on extraction. And the previous owner may have been running hot loads, which expanded the case heads. Which could explain the 0.002" difference in case head sizes in your stash of brass.

Sometimes small sizing dies cannot size ballooned cases enough, and that is when roller sizers are needed. Those cost about $2,000, but they have swaging power well above what we have with our dinky reloading equipment.

Bump the shoulders back no more than 0.003" from the chamber shoulder. Bump the shoulder back too much, and you will experience case head separations.

I do recommend a Wilson case gauge in 25-06. The Wilson case gauge measures base to shoulder length, not cartridge "fatness". However, if you plunk fired brass in the thing and it is between Go and No Go, and then plunk sized brass, and it is above the No Go, you will have figured out that your cases are too long.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....nt-wilson-cartridge-case-gage-25-06-remington

Fix this before you bust an extractor.

PS. Cutting your loads never hurt anything. Your reloads may be too hot!

 

[JDeere]

I had this issue with a new barrel installed and using brass that was fired in the original. The new custom barrel had a tighter chamber. Believe me I tried to get the brass to size correctly. Finally ordered new brass and started over. Problem solved...

 

[NMexJim]

It might be prudent to have a gunsmith look over the barrel and chamber and tell you what kind of shape he thinks it in. If you can find one with a set of headspace gages, that’d be good too although that can be figured out with one of these https://www.hornady.com/headspace-bushings#!/

Just to be sure it’s not a lost cause.

 

[243winxb]

Unique Case Lube

Get some RCBS 2 case lube & pad. A RCBS nylon brush for inside the necks. A tiny bit of 2 lube on brush. Wipe neck out after sizing with Q Tip.

 

[243winxb]

Only about 100 cases chambered successfully

Work with these brass. Should be able to load them many times.

From Lee - First make sure the the sizing die is adjusted so that the shell holder contacts the base of the die when the ram is at the top of its stroke when resizing a case. This ensures that the sizing die is bumping the shoulder back as well as reducing the diameter of the case. If the shell holder does not contact the base of the die, the diameter of the case is squeezed down, making the case (and distance to the shoulder) longer.

 

[AJC1]

You did not mention if the cases are all factory 25-06 or are using necked sized 30-06 cases, such as an author in Handloader did. If the case necks are thick, you might be pinching the bullet in the chamber.

If you can find a small base die in 25-06, buy it. Small base dies will reduce the case head 0.002" more than standard sizing dies, and that does make a difference. Every caliber I can find a small base die, I buy it. Brass has to be smaller than the chamber or it will stick on extraction. And the previous owner may have been running hot loads, which expanded the case heads. Which could explain the 0.002" difference in case head sizes in your stash of brass.

Sometimes small sizing dies cannot size ballooned cases enough, and that is when roller sizers are needed. Those cost about $2,000, but they have swaging power well above what we have with our dinky reloading equipment.

Bump the shoulders back no more than 0.003" from the chamber shoulder. Bump the shoulder back too much, and you will experience case head separations.

I do recommend a Wilson case gauge in 25-06. The Wilson case gauge measures base to shoulder length, not cartridge "fatness". However, if you plunk fired brass in the thing and it is between Go and No Go, and then plunk sized brass, and it is above the No Go, you will have figured out that your cases are too long.

https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....nt-wilson-cartridge-case-gage-25-06-remington

Fix this before you bust an extractor.

PS. Cutting your loads never hurt anything. Your reloads may be too hot!

I've been curious if some of these types of problems could be resolved with a lee bulge buster. I'm sure there is a limit to what it could correct, and it would take a strong press with good mechanical advantage.

 

[jmorris]

1. Is .002 difference enough to cause these cases to get stuck in the chamber?

2. Could the chamber in the two rifles be just different enough to be a concern?

3. Will using a small-base sizing die on the cases that jam squeeze the base diameter down enough to make a difference here?

Yes.

Yes

Maybe.

Often, I don’t run dies all the way down to shove the shoulder as far back as I can. On a bolt gun, I stop once the bolt begins to drop, the case is under compression with the bolt fully closed but not sticky. Reduces the need to trim and gives excellent case life because it’s not being overly sized and blown back out, each firing.

Looks like this.

Setting size die for bolt action rifle.

www.youtube.com

Now that is for “A” bolt action rifle, if you have two, it’s an almost certainly they won’t be identical; however, you can do that same test with one case in both rifles and you will know instantly which one is the tight one. Set the die for that rifle and the ammunition will function in both.

 

[jmorris]

I've been curious if some of these types of problems could be resolved with a lee bulge buster. I'm sure there is a limit to what it could correct, and it would take a strong press with good mechanical advantage.

A case pro roll sizer would do it but it probably wouldn’t be worth it. Easier and cheaper to start with usable brass in the first place, when volumes are low. I mostly use them for pistol cases we use in SMG’s, so they will work in anything again as they can get fairly blown out in some of them.

 

[AJC1]

A case pro roll sizer would do it but it probably wouldn’t be worth it. Easier and cheaper to start with usable brass in the first place, when volumes are low. I mostly use them for pistol cases we use in SMG’s, so they will work in anything again as they can get fairly blown out in some of them.

I'm trying to figure out a low cost alternative. Maybe paying for a service is the right answer. My thoughts are considerations beyond common brass, when you have a pile of 35 rem 6mm rem or 7.7 jap where 2k is not practical but the brass is not common either... I've never checked the full extent of djs brass services or the cost.

 

[NMexJim]

Save some of that brass.

Just in case you don't have a copy of this .....

https://www.rcbs.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-HuntShootAccessoriesSharedLibrary/default/dw7be4b2fb/productPdfFiles/rcbsPdf/Reloading_Die_Instructions.pdf

It might be possible that the dies you have are neck size only. Maybe check the product number on the box w/ RCBS site to see what you have. Neck size only will definitely give you some problems at some point.

I'd guess that you have the 2-die set w/ resize and bullet seat/crimp, but make sure. Watch the video posted by JMorris and set the dies w/ the instructions in front of you. I freely use a highlighter to keep my eye where it needs to be. Too, be sure you have the correct shell holder.

I personally like Hornady One Shot case lube, but that's just a matter of choice. Some cases are hard to resize without careful lube and perhaps some powdered graphite in the neck. Definitely make sure the neck is clean with no burrs. In the instructions, it says you do not need to use lube w/ carbide dies. Ok, well, I'd use a little anyway. One trick is to spray One Shot into a large plastic bag, throw in a few cases, and shake them up. Lube pads work well too.

In the video there is a case gage. I have included the instructions for a Wilson gage. Not necessary as you can use the chamber of your rifle, but you may want to think about one somewhere along the line. It's a bit easier than chambering and ejecting.

https://lewilson.com/assets/images/Regular%20Case%20Gage%20Instructions.pdf

So, in summary:

• make sure what dies you have. Might let us know when you find out.
• watch the video and read/highlight instructions for FL sizing die. There is all kinds of help on RCBS.
• make sure shell holder is correct.
• use some of those old cases to set up your sizer. Clean them, lube them. Clean the necks.
• Carbide or steel dies, touch the shell holder to the die. I personally like to "overcam" just a touch.
• Chamber and see if you have a fit.
• If all this works, move on to adjusting the bullet seater. I usually keep a couple of dummy cases w/ seated bullet so I have a reference later on.

Good luck. May the Force be with you!

 

[NMexJim]

FYI. Here’s an article on setting a FL die using a comparator. This is shoulder bumping.

Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International « Daily Bulletin

How to Set Up Your Full Length Sizing Die by Ron Dague, Sinclair International Technician From Sinclair's Reloading Press Blog At Sinclair International, we are often asked for a fool-proof method to set up a full-length sizing die, and begin reloading our fired cases.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

 

[jmorris]

I'm trying to figure out a low cost alternative. Maybe paying for a service is the right answer. My thoughts are considerations beyond common brass, when you have a pile of 35 rem 6mm rem or 7.7 jap where 2k is not practical but the brass is not common either... I've never checked the full extent of djs brass services or the cost.

Well the concept is pretty simple on the casepro, the brass falls between two dies, one that slides back and forth, there is a taper machined into them so after the case is picked up the die rolls it between the other and the diameter is reduced, including into the extractor groove. A base sized case falls out the end.

This is the one I use most that I added a gear motor and collator to.



Roll sized cases fall through the 3” box tubing into the basket below.

What the dies look like, the case is squeezed between them in use.



A push through sizer would work for non tapered cases but not so much tapered ones. I suppose my 9mm dies for the casepro would show that better that the 45 ACP ones above.

 

[jmorris]

FYI. Here’s an article on setting a FL die using a comparator. This is shoulder bumping.

Full-Length Sizing Die Set-Up — Tip from Sinclair International « Daily Bulletin

How to Set Up Your Full Length Sizing Die by Ron Dague, Sinclair International Technician From Sinclair's Reloading Press Blog At Sinclair International, we are often asked for a fool-proof method to set up a full-length sizing die, and begin reloading our fired cases.

bulletin.accurateshooter.com

That’s pretty much how the method I posted the video works except it doesn’t leave any gap for the case to expand into or require any measuring tools/equipment or human error that can introduce.

 

[NMexJim]

There are a number of roll sizers on the market. I looked at few just for giggles and the pricing seems to be pretty close. I'm linking to an Australian maker below. The price for one generally runs close to $1300 although you can spend much more should one care to. Granted some deprime too.

Buy a Rollsizer | Rollsizer.com

The rollsizer.com rollsizers will process cases for reloading and provide top quality ammunition for the competitive shooter. If you are serious about competition, a rollsizer is a necessity for reliability and consistency.

www.rollsizer.com

No offense intended JM, but I personally have never used a roll sizer. Never thought I needed a roll sizer. As I sit here today some 45-years into reloading, I still don't feel like I need or want a roll sizer, and I own most pistol calibers and several rifle calibers as well. I don't have issues with unsupported cases maybe. Anyway and again, no offense. We all have our own methods.

I think Jim, the OP, can leave a roll sizer out of his considerations for the time being.

Apologia, JM. Just my thoughts this morning.

 

[denton]

I had a similar problem with a 30-30. The basic problem was that my chamber was slightly smaller than spec. New brass would chamber, factory ammo would chamber, but freshly full length sized range brass would not.

30-30 brass has a significant taper. So I bought a die body, whacked to top off, and ground the base back about 1/4". The result was a stubby little die with a base diameter smaller than spec. It successfully reduces range brass to under spec diameter, and it fits my undersize chamber.

 

[jmorris]

No offense intended JM, but I personally have never used a roll sizer. Never thought I needed a roll sizer. As I sit here today some 45-years into reloading, I still don't feel like I need or want a roll sizer, and I own most pistol calibers and several rifle calibers as well. I don't have issues with unsupported cases maybe. Anyway and again, no offense. We all have our own methods.

I think Jim, the OP, can leave a roll sizer out of his considerations for the time being.

None taken, I reloaded happily for over 2 decades before I ever owned case gauges that would detect imperfections in the base of a case. I just lived with the occasional malfunction due to imperfect ammunition, never even thinking the base and rim are the only parts that a regular size die can’t correct because of the shell holder. It just wasn’t that big of a deal to me until I began competing and one of those malfunctions cost me a win and the guy that beat me happened to have a case gauge that day to show me it was my round that plunked fine but failed his case gauge. That was the day I changed my routine and became a greater threat to my competition.

I still don’t use them for every thing, just ammunition I need to be 100%.

That said, I would absolutely not suggest one to the OP, I’d just get some loaded ammunition and shoot it from that firearm and keep the brass. It generally makes more sense that just buying new brass and all the other components, dollar wise.

 

[Slamfire]

I've been curious if some of these types of problems could be resolved with a lee bulge buster. I'm sure there is a limit to what it could correct, and it would take a strong press with good mechanical advantage.

Might with pistol ammunition. Lee currently only claims the Bulge Buster for use with a limited number of pistol cases.

BULGE BUSTER KIT

Lee Bulge Buster Kit and appropriate Lee Factory Crimp assures your mixed brass is bulge free. This push through die adapter will quickly remove the annoying bulge rings that shell holder constrained dies simply can@t reach.

leeprecision.com

Expanded case heads are why roller sizers are made. Not all brands last, I used to add a link to the Casepro 100 roll riser. Well, that company id gone. I hope those with Casepro roll sizers purchased spare parts!

This is a different brand: