2nd Tier Pistols / The $85 kick in the

[1006]

Guys, I didn't mean to knock anyone for buying/owning any of these guns. That wasn't my intent. I've owned a number of them myself. My real intent is (knowing Reps from these company's peruse the gun boards) to get these brands to step up their game and allow fewer lemons out the Door. My last Tanfoglio (elite match 10mm) was a nightmare from start to finish. To be fair, the other manufacturers in Question do a Far better job resolving issues than EAA.

 

[el Godfather]

I think i understand what OP is trying yo ask here. Not necessarily getting in to what is 2nd tier, the spirit of the question is that buying a handgun to defend your self, family and property is a much different decision then buying certain other things in life. The idea is that if even 100$ more can get you time tested reliable contraption that your life can depend on- then why go cheap. Look its not luxury item we are talking about and neither are we comparing a difference of thousands of dollars. We are talking about less then 100$. That said, unless someone is on really tight budget, I see no reason from them to deviate from quality firearms and buy something with blemished reputation for defense purpose- collection for the sake of variety is a different matter all together, but even then it is debatable choice.

 

[OARNGESI]

ive owned hipoints jennings ravens etc but the worst gun i ever bought was a kimber ultra carry it was areally nice gun right up until you tried to shoot it.

 

[Dakotared]

When it comes to Tanfoglio they are good guns. When it comes to EAA the importer of the Tanfoglio they SUCK!!! There is a difference. If you have a problem with a Tanfoglio you pretty much have to deal with EAA and that is where the bad name comes in.

 

[Inazone]

If it's simply a matter of "Why not buy the proven gun from an established manufacturer?" then I'd just say that variety is the spice of life, and you'll never know if something different is any good without trying it. For instance, I bought a Steyr M9 on a whim, knowing absolutely nothing about the brand or the gun, and I ended up loving it. Friends of mine who are much more experienced and own much more expensive firearms comment on how comfortable and accurate it is. It's a bit picky about ammo, but that's the way it goes. More recently, I bought a Bersa BP9CC despite there being very little info available (yet) online. Bersa isn't exactly a household name for most people, nor is it a "top-tier" brand by most accounts, but I couldn't be happier.

In both cases, I could have spent a little more money on a known quantity, but this was more fun. Now, if either of these was to be my only gun and a problem would leave me without anything for defensive use, I'd probably be more inclined to spend a bit more on something more established.

 

[1006]

Those are good points about variety, features, or just fun/enjoyment. I think I was just venting about my Problem guns. The Big name Gun manufacturers don't always offer what a person may be looking for. For example, If you want a metal frame double stack pistol in 10mm who ya gonna call? Bill Murry?

 

[Fishslayer]

Where is this S&W for $80 more than a Taurus? I'm in!

 

[burk]

I would say it depends on the gun. Working part time at Gander, I've seen every manufacturers firearms returned. But no doubt some companies, Taurus, Diamondback pistols, and I.O. have far more than their share. We've also seen some lemons from the big boys. But for the record, While Bersa and Charter Arms aren't "precision machines" we've had very few returns and lots of positive reports. I would honestly say that the Bersa thunder has had less complaints (by percentage) than the PPK it copies. In the sub $400 range I would call all of these guns serviceable firearms.

1) Bersa Thunder
2) EAA Windicator
3) Ruger P95
4) Charter Arms revolvers
5) S & W SD series.

 

[45_auto]

Got a buddy who's an "automotive repair technician" (with some thirty years experience) at a reputable major brand dealership ... He says that he does an awful lot of warranty work -- most of his warranty work -- on ... Jeeps and Chryslers ... even the high-end models.

Let me guess - this reputable major brand dealership he works at is a Jeep or Chrysler dealer? How many people take their cars to a different brand dealer for warranty work? Will Ford, Chevrolet, Honda, or Toyota dealers even do warranty work on Jeeps or Chryslers?

 

[Esoxchaser]

Which tier some brand belongs in is purely subjective. I love my Ruger rimfire handguns. and can't stand the 10/22. Others feel just the opposite. I love my Savage rimfires and in both .17hmr and .22LR have them shoot MOA right out of the box as long as I am using ammunition they like. Others prefer to buy big buck Euro firearms or Ruger 77 series and look down their noses at the MOA shooting Savages. I love my Sigs and cannot stand even attempting to accurately fire a Glock. The number of Glockboys out there show I am probably just not getting it..........

 

[GyMac]

Disregarding the issue of "tier ranking" entirely, I believe that many people just go out to buy a gun, any gun, and the cheaper the better.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

For self defense, I personally wouldn't own something unless it had a stellar reputation as being reliable. I would rather have one or two top notch rarely disputed brands than more of the others.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Tanfoglio
Taurus
Kel Tec
Bersa

2nd tier? Hmmm, I had no idea!

Now if you were referring to Jimenez, Lorcin, or Phoenix Arms, ok, but the ones you have listed are not 2nd tier.

 

[Olympus]

Including Tanfoglio with Bersa and Keltec is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Definitely not something you'd do if you were familiar with Tanfoglio. Take a look at the Limited Stock 2 or Gold Match. Grouping them with Taurus, Bersa, and Keltec is asinine of you ask me.

 

[TarDevil]

The Warranty / return rate on these 2nd tier pistols was about 300% higher than the Smiths, Rugers, colts, Etc..

I'd have to see something tangible before I accept these numbers. Yeah, one could perhaps single out ONE problematic gun from one specific mfr for a given time period and find "300%" numbers, but otherwise I tend to take such generalized estimates with skepticism.

 

[ny32182]

Tanfos are basically competition guns, and while I don't own or shoot them myself I have several good friends that do... from what I can see they might be finicky, but once running they are going to perform at a very high level that none of these other brands are going to approach.

I was fingering a worked Stock 2 yesterday. I'll be getting one of those to mess around with if/when they ever become available again. So put me in the camp that says lumping tanfo in with "low end" carry guns like keltec or Bersa makes little sense. It is much like saying "Honda Civic is more reliable than a 911 Turbo... therefore Civic is a better car"! For everyday carry, sure. For top end performance, not so much. There would be no reason to carry a Tanfo anyway; they weigh like 44oz or something.

 

[sigma 40ve]

I learned that lesson years ago. Friends would buy ARCUS FN clones and other trash and then complain when the gun did not work.

If I want a "knock about" gun, I just buy a spare used Glock and replace all the springs before the first range trip. I have had bad luck with CZ and consider them something I won't buy.

My Arcus 94 has been great, 100% so far. FWIW, the biggest POS I ever owned from NIB has been a SW model 10. A total POS. Fired less than 1/2 box thru it before SW took it back.

 

[mgmorden]

Ben Stoeger - the 2011 and 2012 USPSA Production Nationals champion, is shooting a Tanfoglio for this upcoming season. There's nothing wrong with a lot of the guns you mentioned.

If it works reliably and is accurate - why should anyone care what name is on the slide?

 

[1006]

Tanfoglio makes a large range of guns. Their basic offerings thru the their elite line. I've owned pistols from both and about 2/3 of them would not cycle properly, even after gunsmith work. YMMV. Their are many diff. Reasons for gun purchasing. I've admitted I over looked many of these. (Collecting, Target, competition shooting/ specific or unique features , just for fun etc... However, in the context of buying a gun primarily as a self defense tool, I will stand by my orig. post. I've owned all the guns Mentioned in my first post, and you know what, all but 2 (out of about 10 or 12) have given me fairly major headaches. My Rugers, Smiths, FN, etc.. Never give me any problems.(Aside From the rare hiccup which all pistols can have) And yes, it is very common to see Rugers and smiths priced within $80.00 to $100.00 of the these other brands, I see it all the time. (ok not Keltec)

 

[evan price]

Meh, I carry a Taurus or Kel-Tec or NAA. I'v even been known to carry a third-tier (or is it fourth?) H&R 732 snub. Stay away from Ring of Fire guns and you're good, and even the RoF guns will do the job, most likely.
Seems like just another way to go around the gun snob issue ("High Points are junk, Taurus is junk, Ruger is junk, if you save another $75 you can buy a used Glock") etc etc.

 

[Manny]

I'm with the OP, oftentimes better guns aren't much more than the low end stuff. Though there ARE good guns even in those brands he paints as 2nd tier, such as the Taurus PT and Bersa, there are enough problems widely known with some of them that I won't chance my money on them. After a whole bunch of guns over the years I now own Ruger DA revolvers and Glock semi-autos for the most part as I find them tough, durable, reliable and reasonably priced. I expect all those guns to be running strong long after I'm gone. I also spent the extra to get a Honda over a Chrysler just recently. My third Honda, virtually no problems with the first two despite fairly severe service and excellent resale when I traded.

 

[wgaynor]

I fail to see where price equates quality and reliability. Even BMW's and Porsche's break down.

I've owned a Kel-Tec and 3 Hi-points along with Taurus, Colt, Ruger, Remington, H&R, and Mossberg. If I worried about the name brand, sure I'd buy what's popular and pricey. If I want function, I'll buy what personal experience proves is reliable.

To make a choice purely on anecdotal evidence is folly. What you hear from people and on the internet, is rarely true. Instead, buy it and try it. If it fails, trade up.

 

[kerreckt]

My full size Tanfoglio 9mm is every bit as dependable and more accurate than my 3 SIGs and Browning Hi-Power. Snobbery and advertising seem to be the driving force behind many peoples' choices. Just as many people will buy a Mercedes Benz or BMW when Honda, Toyota or Hyundai products have better service records and offer all the creature comforts of the M-Bs and BMWs. The only thing they lack is the "right" nameplate. Same with firearms. 1st tier, 2nd tier, etc. is an example of this thinking. Don't think for yourself just continue to do what the advertising suggests.

 

[saturno_v]

Not to beat a dead horse but as has been said by several users, the OP used a pretty wide brush and an overly simplistic demarcation line.

To add an extra dimension to what brand is to be considered high quality and what is not, for example S&W guns are not always "Tier 1" products....so you must distinguish sometimes even within the same brand what is top tier and what is not. Do not fool youself thinking that if you did buy for example a Sigma you bought S&W traditional high quality...you didn't and there are second tier brand products that could run circles clockwise and counterclockwise around a Sigma.

Bersa, another example, is basically not longer considered a "Tier 2" producer and prices already reflect that, the public has finally recognized their full value.

Tanfoglio are very nice guns, extremely accurate (among the best on that aspect) and ergonomic but quality control is spotty and in the US they are imported and supported by a company that should go for an extensive training session at Hi-Point headquarter to learn the meaning of the words "Customer Service".

So in the case of Tanfoglio they are Tier 1 products for accuracy, design and ergonomics, Tier 2 for quality control and Tier negative 10 when it comes to Customer Service


So it's complicated....

 

[119er]

I'll be keeping my Tanfoglio witnesses for sure. I have an earlier non-rail small frame in 9mm that I will never get rid of. It is the go to range gun for speed drills and having fun. Admittedly it will hiccup and fail to extract every so often but I am also running reloads through it. My girlfriend and I recently qualified for our CHL's with witnesses(9mm and a .45) and we both out shot the entire class.

About EAA customer service...... They can be a little condescending and rude but I have had one problem with my .45 Witness that was addressed immediately. The part was in my mailbox several days later.

The Witness is what changed my mind about being a gun snob. I only bought new and from large and long running American brands. I still do but now I'm not so narrow minded.