.30/06 brass; Norma vs. Lapua, which is better?
- Thread starter GooseGestapo
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OK guys, let's stay on topic. 
I have not used either in a Garand (I just shoot one for fun now and again), but prefer Lapua, despite Norma being very good brass. It is the brass of choice in many types of match shooting for a reason.
Might be cheaper to buy something else, sort it, prep it, and group it, and still have it shoot very well. Don't know.
The shooter will make bigger errors on target than the brass most times anyway, right? I know I sure can.
The best? Lapua. The best for a Garand? I don't know.
I have not used either in a Garand (I just shoot one for fun now and again), but prefer Lapua, despite Norma being very good brass. It is the brass of choice in many types of match shooting for a reason.
Might be cheaper to buy something else, sort it, prep it, and group it, and still have it shoot very well. Don't know.
The shooter will make bigger errors on target than the brass most times anyway, right? I know I sure can.
The best? Lapua. The best for a Garand? I don't know.
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Now I do not know diddly about 30-06 except I loaded it for a while just for fun and finally sold my Rem 700 as the recoil was to much for my old bones.
As to brass 6mmBR rated Lapua the best for6mmBR, 243, 223 and 308 with Norma right in the running, so wouldn't the same hold true for the 06 also? Unless of course if the Garand is a different animal?
As Walkalong states isn't there more variables with everything else besides if the brass is Lapua or Norma? (For mere mortals of course)
http://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html
As to brass 6mmBR rated Lapua the best for6mmBR, 243, 223 and 308 with Norma right in the running, so wouldn't the same hold true for the 06 also? Unless of course if the Garand is a different animal?
As Walkalong states isn't there more variables with everything else besides if the brass is Lapua or Norma? (For mere mortals of course
)http://www.6mmbr.com/6mmbr.html
Rule3, yes, there is there more variables with everything else besides if the brass is Lapua or Norma. (For everyone) That’s why the best .30-06 Garands put bullets down range in 2.0 to 3.0 MOA compared to 6mmBR benchrest rifles doing it in 0.2 to 0.3 MOA. They are different animals, too. One’s an equestrian carefully bred and built to do precise things on an obstacle course in good weather by especially trained and capable humans. The other’s a draft horse built to deliver armament across battlefields to do well in all sorts of weather by normal humans. One can be refined for best performance much easier than the other. One’s virtually untouched and not aimed by humans when it performs while the other is totally touched and aimed by humans. Here’s why.
The cartridge....
6mmBR powder charges are short and fat. That lets them ignite very uniformly from shot to shot. .30-06 ones are longer and skinnier. They don’t ignite as uniformly from shot to shot. Which one do you think will produce a greater muzzle velocity spread?
That 24 caliber round has a 40 degree shoulder going from .456" diameter down to .272" diameter. Compare that to the 30 caliber round’s 17.5 degree shoulder at .443" tapering down to .340". ‘06 cases have been measured for shoulder setback from firing pin impact with readings .004" to .007" depending on friction between case and chamber shoulder. BR cases so measured show about .001" shoulder setback. Which one do you think will enable a more uniform primer firing?
One’s .243" diameter bullets have a few pounds of force needed to push (or pull) the bullet out of their case neck. The other’s .308" diameter bullets have 20 to 40 pounds of force to do that. How much difference does that make with a 20% spread in each to their pressure curve shapes and muzzle velocity spreads?
The rifle....
Bolt action benchrest rifles have three moving parts; trigger, bolt and firing pin; all are easily put back into battery for each shot very repeatable from shot to shot and have minimal influence on how the barrel whips and vibrates from shot to shot. Garand service rifle’s moving parts include the bolt, hammer and firing pin, op rod, hand guards, magazine follower parts, rear sight parts and the barrel’s mid point fit to the stock’s ferrule through their lower barrel band. ‘Tain’t easy to make all of them go back to exactly the same place from shot to shot. Otherwise, their varying fit after each shot changes the way the barrel whips while the bullet’s going down it; the muzzle axis won’t point to the same place from shot to shot. Epoxying hand guards to their barrel helps but the rest have to be precision fit and matched for the best repeatability from shot to shot possible; maybe 2 or 3 people are still around that do that right.
Rifles held and aimed by shooters....
13-pound benchrest rifles are fired in free recoil untouched by humans except by a finger on a 2-ounce trigger. They’re resting on supports that stay in place for each shot and recoil back very repeatable from shot to shot. And go back into battery exactly the same for each shot. The shock of their trigger stopping at its limits moves the rifle very little, if at all. That 9 pound Garand is held by a wiggling human (their heart beat move muscles holding bones in position; they’re aimed somewhere inside a 3/4 MOA area at best slung up in prone) pulling a 5-pound trigger. When that trigger’s pull slams into its stops, the rifle moves a little. Nor is the rifle repeatably held against one’s shoulder nor supported the same by the off hand on its fore end. As the shooter’s position is not 100% repeatable from shot to shot, that impact further moves the muzzle axis off the desired point by the time the bullet leaves because the center of mass/resistance to recoil ain’t in the same place for every shot. Which one will shoot most accurately by humans if both test with equally accuracy when shot from a free recoiling accuracy cradle?
High magnification scope sights on benchrest rifles can be aimed at the same point on their target square repeatability within about 1/50th MOA. Ambient light direction and amount make no difference. Metallic sights on a Garand can be aimed repeatably on bullseye targets to about ½ MOA repeatability. Which is why the old “sight sayings” for M1's rear sights are: “Light’s up, sights up; light’s down sights down. Sun to the right, sight right, sun to the left, sight left.” All because of the way the front sight post is illuminated and seen/positioned relative to the target bullseye. Enough said about sights.
Regarding brass quaity....
Prepping and sorting brass makes a difference in accuracy of about 1/10th MOA in short range benchrest matches in the best ones with 1/3 MOA accuracy at 100 yards or 1/2 MOA at 300 (yes, that’s what the best have done shooting several 5- or 10-shot groups averaged for their aggregate group size). The best accuracy with .30-06 Garands tested in accuracy cradles with arsenal match ammo was about 1.5 MOA at 300 yards; good lots of commercial match ammo or hand loaded new cases was about 2/3 MOA. 7.62 NATO versions used by the USN and USAF teams were about 40% better. Which one’s easy to see the benefits of case sorting and prepping when normally fired?
The cartridge....
6mmBR powder charges are short and fat. That lets them ignite very uniformly from shot to shot. .30-06 ones are longer and skinnier. They don’t ignite as uniformly from shot to shot. Which one do you think will produce a greater muzzle velocity spread?
That 24 caliber round has a 40 degree shoulder going from .456" diameter down to .272" diameter. Compare that to the 30 caliber round’s 17.5 degree shoulder at .443" tapering down to .340". ‘06 cases have been measured for shoulder setback from firing pin impact with readings .004" to .007" depending on friction between case and chamber shoulder. BR cases so measured show about .001" shoulder setback. Which one do you think will enable a more uniform primer firing?
One’s .243" diameter bullets have a few pounds of force needed to push (or pull) the bullet out of their case neck. The other’s .308" diameter bullets have 20 to 40 pounds of force to do that. How much difference does that make with a 20% spread in each to their pressure curve shapes and muzzle velocity spreads?
The rifle....
Bolt action benchrest rifles have three moving parts; trigger, bolt and firing pin; all are easily put back into battery for each shot very repeatable from shot to shot and have minimal influence on how the barrel whips and vibrates from shot to shot. Garand service rifle’s moving parts include the bolt, hammer and firing pin, op rod, hand guards, magazine follower parts, rear sight parts and the barrel’s mid point fit to the stock’s ferrule through their lower barrel band. ‘Tain’t easy to make all of them go back to exactly the same place from shot to shot. Otherwise, their varying fit after each shot changes the way the barrel whips while the bullet’s going down it; the muzzle axis won’t point to the same place from shot to shot. Epoxying hand guards to their barrel helps but the rest have to be precision fit and matched for the best repeatability from shot to shot possible; maybe 2 or 3 people are still around that do that right.
Rifles held and aimed by shooters....
13-pound benchrest rifles are fired in free recoil untouched by humans except by a finger on a 2-ounce trigger. They’re resting on supports that stay in place for each shot and recoil back very repeatable from shot to shot. And go back into battery exactly the same for each shot. The shock of their trigger stopping at its limits moves the rifle very little, if at all. That 9 pound Garand is held by a wiggling human (their heart beat move muscles holding bones in position; they’re aimed somewhere inside a 3/4 MOA area at best slung up in prone) pulling a 5-pound trigger. When that trigger’s pull slams into its stops, the rifle moves a little. Nor is the rifle repeatably held against one’s shoulder nor supported the same by the off hand on its fore end. As the shooter’s position is not 100% repeatable from shot to shot, that impact further moves the muzzle axis off the desired point by the time the bullet leaves because the center of mass/resistance to recoil ain’t in the same place for every shot. Which one will shoot most accurately by humans if both test with equally accuracy when shot from a free recoiling accuracy cradle?
High magnification scope sights on benchrest rifles can be aimed at the same point on their target square repeatability within about 1/50th MOA. Ambient light direction and amount make no difference. Metallic sights on a Garand can be aimed repeatably on bullseye targets to about ½ MOA repeatability. Which is why the old “sight sayings” for M1's rear sights are: “Light’s up, sights up; light’s down sights down. Sun to the right, sight right, sun to the left, sight left.” All because of the way the front sight post is illuminated and seen/positioned relative to the target bullseye. Enough said about sights.
Regarding brass quaity....
Prepping and sorting brass makes a difference in accuracy of about 1/10th MOA in short range benchrest matches in the best ones with 1/3 MOA accuracy at 100 yards or 1/2 MOA at 300 (yes, that’s what the best have done shooting several 5- or 10-shot groups averaged for their aggregate group size). The best accuracy with .30-06 Garands tested in accuracy cradles with arsenal match ammo was about 1.5 MOA at 300 yards; good lots of commercial match ammo or hand loaded new cases was about 2/3 MOA. 7.62 NATO versions used by the USN and USAF teams were about 40% better. Which one’s easy to see the benefits of case sorting and prepping when normally fired?
I appreciate all the info and obviously you know your stuff. However i said:
"As to brass 6mmBR rated Lapua the best for6mmBR, 243, 223 and 308 with Norma right in the running,"
So it would stand to reason for mortal shooter that it is good for 30-06 perhaps not the Garand
The web site rated or preferred it for all those calibers, not just 6mm. All I was referring to. Not comparing 6mmBR to a Garand
"As to brass 6mmBR rated Lapua the best for6mmBR, 243, 223 and 308 with Norma right in the running,"
So it would stand to reason for mortal shooter that it is good for 30-06 perhaps not the Garand
The web site rated or preferred it for all those calibers, not just 6mm. All I was referring to. Not comparing 6mmBR to a Garand
I think the cartridge has to be compared to another in the rifles they're fired in. The accuracy of the system (rifle + ammo + shooter) is the only way it works to put bullets on target. While a super accurate .30-06 bolt gun may well benefit from best quality cases and reveal their superiority, in Garand, they won't. The variables in each case make/type are masked by the lesser accuracy of the Garand.
Sounds like there is no reason to waste money buying the absolute best brass if the platform isn't capable of taking advantage of it, and it sounds like the Garand isn't.
I buy/have bought, Lapua for two applications. 6MM PPC (Converted .220 Russian) for Benchrest and .308 for F-Class. Nothing else, including Varmint guns and an accurate AR.
I buy/have bought, Lapua for two applications. 6MM PPC (Converted .220 Russian) for Benchrest and .308 for F-Class. Nothing else, including Varmint guns and an accurate AR.
JRH6856
Member
Bart B said:
FWIW:
Code:
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 190, Sierra HP MatchK 2210
Useable Case Capaci: 59.625 grain H2O = 3.871 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Powder : Alliant Reloder-22
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-01.0 107 59.40 2756 3204 52581 9235 97.3 1.309
+00.0 108 60.00 2786 3274 54491 9311 97.6 1.288
+01.0 109 60.60 2816 3345 56479 9383 98.0 1.268
+02.0 110 61.20 2846 3417 58554 9451 98.3 1.248USSR
Member
Thanks JRH6856, pressure well within SAAMI specs as I said.
Don
Don
cheygriz
member
Many years ago, I shot my NM Garand in NRA competition. Lake City match always served me very well. As did IMR 4895, Remington 9 1/2 primers and Sierra 180 match bullets.
Thanks for posting those Quickload numbers.
Would like to see how much powder's needed to shoot a 190 out at 2900 fps and the predicted peak pressure with it.
As well as data for a barrel with both .3070" and .3075" groove diameter.
USSR, is your .30-06 barrel's bore cross sectional area SAAMI spec at .0737 square inch? If it's smaller, your peak pressure's going to be a lot higher. I suspect it is.
And did you know that Humphreville's .30-06 shot reduced loads with Winchester 190-gr. bullets to win those Palma matches?
Would like to see how much powder's needed to shoot a 190 out at 2900 fps and the predicted peak pressure with it.
As well as data for a barrel with both .3070" and .3075" groove diameter.
USSR, is your .30-06 barrel's bore cross sectional area SAAMI spec at .0737 square inch? If it's smaller, your peak pressure's going to be a lot higher. I suspect it is.
And did you know that Humphreville's .30-06 shot reduced loads with Winchester 190-gr. bullets to win those Palma matches?
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JRH6856
Member
Code:
Cartridge : .30-06 Spring. (SAAMI)
Bullet : .308, 190, Sierra HP MatchK 2210
Useable Case Capaci: 59.625 grain H2O = 3.871 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
XSection Bore Area : .073656 in² = 47.52 mm²
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-22 112.1 62.3 4.04 2900 98.8 62508 9562 1.214With a .307 groove, charge required is 62.1 grains, pressure is 63033 psi.
(.3075 rounds to .308)
USSR
Member
Bart,
That's what I like about you - you keep moving the goal post. First, the pressure would be akin to a USGI proof load. Then, when that was proved false, you claim my Krieger #10 MTU barrel has a small bore size. The plain facts are, myself and another guy in Montana both worked independently on this load. His rifle was a Remington M700 with a 26" Krieger #10 MTU barrel, and mine was a Winchester M70 with the same barrel. We both reached 2900fps at safe pressure (I really don't believe both our Chronys were off), he using Norma brass, and I using Lapua brass. As for the velocity numbers coming out of Quick Load, they are ball park numbers. For example, in addition to my Krieger barreled match rifle,
I also have this straight-from-the-factory Winchester .30-06 Match rifle with a 26" barrel.
With a 178gr Amax load, I get 2950fps with my Krieger barreled Winchester, while only getting 2875fps with the Winchester barreled Winchester with the exact same load. And, I can't think of a single hand load of mine that gets the exact velocity shown in any published load data. There's just too many variables. While I know you won't give up on this (Pride?), the plain truth is, I have devoted several years of my life working with the 190SMK and RL22, and you have not. Best wishes.
Don
That's what I like about you - you keep moving the goal post. First, the pressure would be akin to a USGI proof load. Then, when that was proved false, you claim my Krieger #10 MTU barrel has a small bore size. The plain facts are, myself and another guy in Montana both worked independently on this load. His rifle was a Remington M700 with a 26" Krieger #10 MTU barrel, and mine was a Winchester M70 with the same barrel. We both reached 2900fps at safe pressure (I really don't believe both our Chronys were off), he using Norma brass, and I using Lapua brass. As for the velocity numbers coming out of Quick Load, they are ball park numbers. For example, in addition to my Krieger barreled match rifle,
I also have this straight-from-the-factory Winchester .30-06 Match rifle with a 26" barrel.
With a 178gr Amax load, I get 2950fps with my Krieger barreled Winchester, while only getting 2875fps with the Winchester barreled Winchester with the exact same load. And, I can't think of a single hand load of mine that gets the exact velocity shown in any published load data. There's just too many variables. While I know you won't give up on this (Pride?), the plain truth is, I have devoted several years of my life working with the 190SMK and RL22, and you have not. Best wishes.
Don
You have done nothing to prove your load is at or under SAAMI max average pressure specs. You're guessing. I'm predicting based on Quickload's numbers your average peak pressure over max average. I don't think you want to know what it really is. You don't want to know the truth.
I don't think you know what the barrels inside diameters are.
I don't think you know what the barrels inside diameters are.
USSR
Member
Reading is fundamental. Read the Quick Load estimated Peak Pressure below for 60.6gr of RL22. My load is 60.7gr. Do you seriously think 0.1gr takes it from 56479 psi to over Max?
Don
Don
JRH6856
Member
I would also note that the QL numbers all show compressed loads (he 2900 fps load is 112%. If the actual loads are not compressed, then the default case volume in QL is too low. This is not unexpected as QL instructions recommend measuring and entering the actual volume of the cases used.
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