30-06, Tang safety M77 IMR 4350 SGK 165s?

[Wylie1]

I have been trying to develop loads for an older 30-06 M77 and it just keeps spitting out a terrible mess of what I'm trying to feed it.
It really didn't like A-MAX 178 grns ranging in powder loads from 53-55 grns.

Yesterday a Hornady 165 grain SST (pulled one to get the weight) in a cartridge that may have been discontinued showed what looks to be promising groups. The powder looked to be H4350 although my bullet puller tossed enough powder I can't be too sure just how much was loaded in the case.

The closest I have is SGKs # 2145 in 165 grain and a Willy Nilly buying spree of various bullets is something I feel detoured to.

I've been seating the bullets(178 A-MAXs) so they just touch the lands with an O,A.L. of 3.306" which has at least matched lower end factory loads(Corelokts, Winchester PPs) jumping to lands at a distance I'm not certain of. Case lengths are at 2.484" and seating the bullets just to the lands has shown three contact points with the lands, one easier to see than the outer two.

A question would be, do these rifles often leave a very slight mark on cases from being ejected about 3/16" from the wide end of the necked portion of the case?

Would any of you have experience with a load in a Tang safety M77 using the components I have that would be a base for some accuracy respectable to hunting at least? What you know of these rifles would you think they like a dirty bore? Groups are closing as the bore dirties and cleaning seemed to open the groups?

Components:
Remington,Winchester, Federal, Hornady Brass
IMR 4350
Barnes tsx 165s, Sierra #2145,#2140s 165 grn
CCI primer, Tulammo primers and a few Federals

I appreciate any information you may be able to supply as I am trying to help a friend develop loads for this hunting season.

 

[illinoisburt]

Those older Rugers tended to be 2MOA+ guns from the examples I have seen anyway. So guess the first question is what level of accuracy were you experiencing and what are you trying to attain?

Start by picking an appropriate bullet.

The Amax and 2140 are target bullets not designed for hunting. The Barnes TSX is a good hunting bullet for heavier game like elk, but like all monolithic bullets are known to be a little less accurate in many rifles. The Sierra 2145 is your standard cup/core type hunting bullet for deer and medium game with moderate velocity loads (might blow up at short range from magnum 300's, but works fantastic in the 1800-2700 fps range).

Since you are building hunting ammo for someone else's rifle, seating to the lands is not a good idea. Any dirt, frost, or plain old hurried chambering could very well end up with a binding bolt close or a bullet stuck in the bore when unloading a live round. Recommend you full length size the cases leave 5 to 10 thousandths off the lands.

Second recheck your powder load data. For the IMR 4035 with 165 grain Sierra SPBT recommended is 56 to 60 max. Generally mid point loads work pretty good. YMMV

 

[Captcurt]

My Go To Load.

What Burt said about the OAL. When I load for a new 30-06 I put a starting load of IMR4350 under a 168 SMK. If it doesn't shoot well it usually doesn't shoot anything without a lot of work, like bedding, trigger job or re-crowning.

 

[jmr40]

Any decent 165 and either H4350 or IMR 4350 have worked well for me. I think the problem may just be the rifle. Back in those days Ruger contracted out to outside vendors for barrels. Some shot very well, others were 2 MOA guns no matter what you did.

 

[CarJunkieLS1]

take this with a grain of salt but I've always been told that if a 30-06 won't shoot a 165gr bullet pushed by 56gr of IMR 4350 then it won't shoot anything...

 

[Gtscotty]

I've had great luck with 165 SGKs in 30-06s along with H4350 (57 & 59 gr nodes). IMR works just as well. I almost always load hunting bullets, and in my experience, hunting bullets often do better with a bit of a jump. Maybe you should try loading your 30-06 rounds a bit shorter... My accuracy load is actually 3.234".

 

[judgedelta]

I use Reloader 15 with the 165 Gameking in my '06 BAR . Will usually cloverleaf at a hunnert, if I do my part...

 

[Wylie1]

Thank you for your replies!

I have read reports on the net of these rifles being shooters and in more cases not so much, now confirmed.

Minute of dinner plate is where the rifle is sitting at this point and I didn't mention the scope is in question, Simmons Pro Hunter. We've been looking at options of mounting a different scope for testing, resources are limited.

It almost looks as though this rifle has had the barrel replaced as the colors don't match between the receiver and barrel so I have some hope for it.

I would hope to be able to pull off 1.5" groups at 100 yards with it being that should be a decent kill on a(edit: Mule deer) deer at 200ish.

I was going for accuracy with the bullet seated just to the lands and point has been taken, I'll be shoving them in a couple .001ths deeper.

One thought I forgot to mention and was just reminded of is floating the barrel? I looked at doing this in the first place and my guess was this may not be the best option although I could have it done quickly if you folks might think it would be worth while? I have already relieved some pressure from the right side of the barrel as shots were leading left as the barrel warmed. One small step forward with the accuracy.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Nothing wrong with floating the barrel. For the most part it can't hurt...

I load a 165gr Sierra GK bullet over 57.0gr IMR4350 and that load shoots very well in 6 different 30-06 rifles including a very old model of 1917. I'm glad you are going to back off the lands. In reality loading the bullet just off the lands doesn't work well in all rifles. If it were necessary none of the Westherby rifles would shoot well because all of the have very long leads and none can be loaded just off the lands but they sure do shoot well. If you got the best accuracy from a Hornady 165gr SST try matching that OAL and see if the groups improve.

 

[sage5907]

If you look at the IMR loading data website it shows the Sierra 165 Gameking loaded to an oveall cartridge length of 3.300. They show a load range for IMR 4350 at from 56 grains to 60 grains max as a compressed load. If the rifle won't shoot that bullet with 57 grains you may have to live with what you've got. I've never liked a true free floated barrel although one of my best rifles has one. In that case it's best to glass bed the two inches of barrel in front of the recoil lug and free float the remainder of the barrel the thickness of a sheet of sand paper. Do the glass bedding before you remove any wood from the barrel channel.

 

[george d dennis]

Ruger 77

My Ruger 77 with tang safety does best with 165gr Bullets. Not so good with
180s. Im using a Leupold Scope at 100 yards with good groups. Load might
be with Imr 4895 ? Its been a while since i shot it. Read years ago some of
Ruger 77 barrels were tack drivers.

 

[Coltdriver]

I have had three of the 77's. I still own one in .223.

I just used the ladder method to get my other two to shoot. Both of them dialed right in. I never had to get too close to the lands and on my .308 I crimped them and they still shot 1 moa easy.

Give that a try and you may find that it does indeed have a sweet spot that is probably not far off from where you are.

 

[30Cal]

I've shot both the 165 Sierra GK and the 165 Nosler BT in my M70. The Nosler with a max load of IMR4350 shot a lot better. Lots.

 

[Wylie1]

Nothing wrong with floating the barrel. For the most part it can't hurt..

I did some Googling on the subject and it seems some have floated the barrels in the Tang Safety M77s only to have to turn around and full length bed afterward. I'm leaving this for a later option if I go there.

One thing I did find in Googlandia was a post about the angled screw entering the block area. It mentioned looking for thread impressions in the stock and I did find some so with a file material was removed for clearance.
What happens from what I understand is if the rifle is fired without proper torque to the action screws, the action screws are forced into the stock effectively becoming the bedding block, a very unstable bedding block.

I do have some Nosler bullets but the suggested velocity indicates a 30-06 wouldn't be adequate at any distances really other than point blank for good expansion of the bullets.

We did load in .5 increments with the A-MAXs, just got no love from them.

We're going to take some factory loads out we have shot before tomorrow and see how they group after the action screws have been relieved.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I do have some Nosler bullets but the suggested velocity indicates a 30-06 wouldn't be adequate at any distances really other than point blank for good expansion of the bullets.

Which Nosler .308 bullets do you claim can't be used in a 30-06? I'm very curious since the toughest bullet they make is the Partition and it's been used in the 30-06 since they were invented and have taken a lot of Moose, Elk and Bear.

 

[illinoisburt]

As a suggestion, I would start with the basics of disassembling the rifle and cleaning thoroughly. With the stock off you can get a good look at the barrel and action fit. Free float versus bedding, both work so more or less your choice. If you go with bedding, just be sure it's even.

Since its an older rifle, it likely still has the iron sights. Try removing the scope and bases and shoot some rounds with the iron sights. If it groups okay from a solid rest with irons, then reinstall the bases and rings. Make sure they line up straight and have no play. Rest the scope in the rings to check that it sits fully down into the rings square. Sometimes the rings are far enough apart that tube doesn't reach both end so part of the bell is in the front ring. Also check for any contact that might interfere with installation (such as the bell touching the rear sight base, etc.) Torque the rings only as tight as you can get them using the short end of a hex key by hand. Try turning the adjustments for elevation and windage to the stops then back to center before sighting in. If the scope is bad it should show up doing this.

Fire a couple groups. If its worse than the irons, you know the likely cause of the issue.

If the scope is bad, borrowing an extra used scope from someone for the season that would be the obvious least cost until he can get a proper replacement. For what it's worth Simmons does have a lifetime warranty. If the scope is broken they should replace it (they never fix them anymore, just replace) though you may have to pay shipping/handling and obviously wait for delivery. Worst case scenario if you need a replacement quickly an inexpensive replacement 3-9x40 glass for $40 from one of the big name low dollar brands like Tasco or Simmons will work. If you have never heard of the brand or is less than the standard 1 inch tube, stay away. There are plenty of threads on cheap scopes, getting what you paid for, etc. so let's not rehash it here where we know funds are limited to begin with so $150+ optics are probably already out of the equation. Suffice to say for the majority of hunters firing only a few shots per year a new budget scope will likely be much better than no glass at all.

 

[Wylie1]

My bad with the Noslers, they are a Ballistic Tip Hunting 165 grain. The expansion pictures on the box stating 3200 fps threw me off a bit, I've had them sitting around for years just because it had been so long since I took another look at them.
The rifle made another step forward today but a baby step with the relief of the screw bedding itself into the stock. We're hand loading for it again tonight with a few different 165 grain bullets.

After I shot the rifle the first time it was taken down and cleaned very thoroughly. It looked as though it had been shot without the action screws tightened correctly in the past I feel as the action was not sitting in the stock correctly for a long time I'd guess. That was cleaned up and the rifle no longer strings from right to left.
Bedding the action has been a thought but it looks to be about as stressing as my Tikka was to bed which went off without a hitch.

No iron sights on this rifle. It's a she and it may come down to getting our hands on a scope after another latter run with 165 grain bullets.

I'll try to update this post as we get along with this.

Thanks again!

 

[Bull Nutria]

i was having trouble getting a Tc venture in 7mm08 to group at 100yds. i recieved a suggestion from this forum to try flat based bullets rather than boattails. i tried 140 g Rem core locts which have a flat base and accuracy improved. what do you have to lose??

Bull

 

[Wylie1]

Thanks!
We've tried Corelokts of two different grain weights so far with no luck.
A few Noslers and SGKs are now loaded but we still have some ladder loads to get made up. I played press hog for a little while loading for my Tikka.

 

[Poper]

I found my Tikka T-3 Hunter likes 52 grains of IMR 4350 in RP brass, CCI-200 primer and 165 grain Berger Hunter grade bullet seated to the Berger book COAL. Shoots 0.788" ctc 5-round cloverleafs at 100 yards with a good bench rest and a good shooter squeezing the 2# trigger.

Hope this helps.

 

[Slamfire]

One thing to examine is the bedding. In this thread, I posted pictures of what I did to glass bed my action and the improvement it made to accuracy.

Ruger Target Rifle MarkII

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=480098&highlight=ruger+M77+bedding

I am of the opinion that the factory stocks are large around the action, which is not the best for accuracy, and that the angled screw, ballyhooed by gunwriters as the end of history, is in fact, inferior to the standard Mauser front lug. Unless the action is restrained by the bedding, it will slide from side to side, regardless of how much tension you apply to the screw. While my action is a later action, all Ruger M77’s share the same basic, bad, action bedding.

After going through the scope, bedding, if that does not fix things, it is the barrel. Ruger used the cheapest barrels they could buy on its early Ruger M77’s. I talked to one barrel manufacturer who claimed they furnished barrels to Ruger, back in the day, and they were selling barrels to Ruger for around $7.00 apiece. It was simply a matter of the low bidder winning and the barrels quality reflect the price.

 

[Micha2u]

My tang safety .30-06 Ruger Model 77 likes 165 gr. bullets and works well with all the ones I've tried. It is as it was shipped from the factory except for the trigger adjustments that I made.

It regularly shoots about 1 m.o.a. but my best 3 shot group at 100 yds. was 0.344" with 57.5 gr of IMR 4350 behind a Hornady 165 gr. BTSP.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

I've heard of that issue with some of the older Rugers. I got my wife a tang safety in .243 and it is a tack driver so I'm thankful for that.

Just a quick question. How are you "working up a load"?
Are you starting at the starting load and working up in small increments? That's what I do and it seems to slowly close and then open back up towards the max load. Its an easy way to find the sweet spot.

What you know of these rifles would you think they like a dirty bore? Groups are closing as the bore dirties and cleaning seemed to open the groups?

Many match shooters rarely clean their bores if that tells you anything.
Here is a quote from Shilen Rifles regarding the cleaning of bores and accuracy:

How clean is clean?
We get this question many times and have a great deal of difficulty helping some customers understand that a rifle barrel does not have to be spotless to shoot great. Many times more harm than good is done in trying to get it that way. Picture a car's fender. If the fender has a small dent in it, then professional application of body putty fills the dent. When painted over, the dent becomes unnoticeable, and the surface of the fender is smooth and consistent. The same thing happens in a rifle barrel on a microscopic level. Removing this small trace of copper puts you right back to square one. The next bullet that crosses that area will, again, leave a small trace of copper. Similar to patching a pothole. All successful benchrest shooters shoot one or more "fouler" shots down the barrel before going to the record target. This is not to warm up the barrel. They are resurfacing it on the inside. Benchrest shooters clean between relays to get the powder fowling out, not the copper. However, since copper usually comes out with the powder, they know that it must be replaced to get "back in the groove". I've had shooters tell me they "cleaned their rifle for 3 hours to get all the copper out of it." Their next statement is almost invariably that they had to shoot 4-5 rounds through it just to get it back to "shooting" again. This tells me that in order for the rifle to shoot well again, they had to replace the copper they worked so diligently to remove. I have a 7x08 Improved that shoots the same 1/2" MOA after 15 minutes of cleaning or 3 hours of scrubbing and de-coppering. Personally, I prefer shooting to cleaning. The gist of this is to set a regular cleaning regimen and stay with it. If the accuracy of the rifle is acceptable with a 15 min. cleaning, why clean longer? I would much rather have people admiring the groups I shot than marveling at how clean my barrel looks on the inside.

 

[Wylie1]

Thanks again folks!
I guess mention of my Tikka threw things off a bit although it seems to like 48.5 grains of Alliant Power Pro 2000 MR with either SGK 2145s or 2140s. I'm just about to try my first run of Lapua brass. Reloads and a receiver bedded Bell and Carlson Medalist stock have shown this Tikka T3 Lite to be a .5 MOA shooter give or take and it's never been in a lead sled to know for sure. It's better than I am most days and that's all I ask from a rifle. I'm still getting to know it being I only really shoot during hunting season, steep inclines and declines I have some practice needed with as well as longer distance shooting.

I have looked at how the receiver seats/beds in the stock and very slight adjustments have been made that stopped the rifle from stringing shots to the left from pressure to the right side of the barrel. The bedding block seems to be square with the world and there have been little steps forward each trip out with the rifle.

Shooting rounds that hot seems to open the group with this M77.

We went at it in .5 increments and it looked to show just what you have mentioned, groups close as we climb the load ladder and open toward heavier powder charges toward 57 grains. As well as the bore builds up copper inside it seems to be shooting sharper.


Although a bit nervous about it I'm with the thought bedding the action is going to make the biggest improvement in accuracy. I have some Devcon 10110 and have done a few bedding jobs with all showing improvement. My friend has went home for a while, her targets and rifle went with her so until she visits next time the mystery will continue.

Edit: As we shoot and the rifle tunes in the scope has become less in question.

 

[Candyb]

Guess we bed the action and rerun the ladder?