.30-06 v .308: which has greater felt recoil

[Meplat]

Where in Dixie are you, Meplat?

Just a bit nawth of Louisianna Bayou country.

It sounds like you're describing my neighborhood, and we don't have 5 acre yards (mine is only 1/3 acre). We're surrounded by farmland and woods, though, so the deer are thicker than the skeeters.

Most of the lots here have "wood breaks" for privacy. Can do that in a place where an acre sets you back AT LEAST a thousand dollars (800 if you buy in bulk). lol These wood breaks are slap full of deer. Most mornings I can walk out at see the same seven little suckers eating my blueberry bushes. On one extended vacation due to a heart attack, I decided to run them off. Broad daylight, white tee-shirt, two in the afternoon - they ignored me yelling at them to leave until I was about thirty yards away, and then calmly walked back into the woods. Since I was only a couple of weeks out from a massive coronary, I didn't bother to carry a bow to negotiate with 'em...hell, could barely walk that far....so they are still harrassing my fruit trees.

Besides deer, we've got a LOT of coyotes. Saturday afternoon, my son and I spotted one standing on a little rise just about 20 feet from a busy road, casually watching the traffic pass by. He was calm as could be -- acting like he owned the place (which he probably does, now that I think about it). He was a big'un, too, for a coyote. I figure he had to be at least 40 pounds, and may well have been over 50.

50 pounds? Dayum! Maybe a hybrid cross with a domestic dog? Does happen.

 

[AStone]

Dang it! More caliber confusion

Well, dadgummit. Just when I thought I'd made a final decision (for .308), along comes new information. (No wonder I'm beating this dead horse ...)

In another thread I started on .270 (back in the day when I was considering that caliber...no longer am...), I just read the following post (excerpted here, along with a slightly edited version of my response in that thread):

The 7mm express as it was labled 20 years ago or longer or better known as the .280 is an excellent choice especially for the recoil sensetive as it is down loaded from the factory to be safely fired in the auto loaders for which it was first chambered. Shoots easy. Can be hot rodded if handloaded.

OK, that post and a couple of others that I've read in the last few hours have opened another can of worms for me.

I'm trying to make a decision between .308 and 7mm08.

The main reason I've been leaning hard towards .308 in recent days is that - even though I like the fact that the 7mm08 has flatter trajectories and less recoil than .308 (even if marginally) - for factory loads (I don't reload...yet), the .308 has a significantly wider range of loads than the 7mm08. (125-180 gr. v. 120-140 gr)

But now I'm realizing - or I think this is correct (based on GeoW's comment AND a note on the Remington ammunition ballistics pages) that the 280 "express" are identical to 7mm08.

Now, I'm a bit unclear: is the 7mm08 the "same" as 7mm Express? That is, is "express" the name of a type of Remington ammunition that can be shot in any gun, or is there a different type of caliber out there? I suspect the former.

And if .280 & 7mm08 are identical in the sense that their ammo is interchangable (at least with express rnds???), then that significantly increases the range of rounds available for a 7mm08 to at least 165 gr in the .280.

Am I onto something, or just a nut job?

(Well, OK, definitely a nut job, but that's beside the point...

Thanks for any clarifications.

Nem

{Edited hours later to add: GeoW responded thusly (see below) in the other thread. Makes sense to me. If anyone disagrees, chime in, otherwise, disregard my question. I'm probably back to .308 again.

See if I can sort this out. .280 Remington = 7MM Remington Express =7MM-06, wich is the oldest name for the cartridge born from a wildcat of the same name. All three of these are the same, identical, based on the 30-06 parent case.

The 7MM-08 Rem is a necked down .308 Win. Has no other name unless maybe a few monikers hanged on it before standardization. It's a darned fine round but not to be confused or interchanged with those listed above.

 

[Meplat]

But now I'm realizing - or I think this is correct (based on GeoW's comment AND a note on the Remington ammunition ballistics pages) that the 280 "express" are identical to 7mm08.

Most DEFINITELY NOT identical in ballistics. The 7mm-08 with a 154 grain bullet has a maximum load which acheives 2500 fps, while the same bullet can be propelled from the .280 at 2900 fps under maximum load. That's a 14% difference in velocity for a given bullet weight, which is quite a lot.

Now, I'm a bit unclear: is the 7mm08 the "same" as 7mm Express? That is, is "express" the name of a type of Remington ammunition that can be shot in any gun, or is there a different type of caliber out there? I suspect the former.

Don't even THINK of loading a 7mm-08 round into a .280 Remington chambering. The 7mm-08 is based on a necked down .308 case (as is the .243 Win.) The .280 Remington is based on a necked down .30-06 case. Should you be unfortunate enough for the firing pin to strike the primer hard enough to cause ignition, then you are going to be in GRAVE danger. Repeat: the .280 Remington (aka 7mm Remington Exress) and the 7mm-08 are NOT the same cartridge.

And if .280 & 7mm08 are identical in the sense that their ammo is interchangable (at least with express rnds???), then that significantly increases the range of rounds available for a 7mm08 to at least 165 gr in the .280.

Am I onto something, or just a nut job?

Nah....a nut job would have never started a thread this fun.

Nem

{Edited hours later to add: GeoW responded thusly (see below) in the other thread. Makes sense to me. If anyone disagrees, chime in, otherwise, disregard my question. I'm probably back to .308 again. [/QUOTE]

Dunno who's worse - you and your questions, or me and not reading your entire post.

 

[itgoesboom]

Nem,

Of the choices so far, I would stick with the .308, if you aren't going with the .30-06.

Maybe I am weird, odd, or just not very "cultivated" when it comes to rifle calibers, but I like very standard cartridges.

Calibers that have been around for years, can be found in almost any town, and just plain work.

Recoil with the .308 and .30-06 really isn't bad, even when you shoot from the bench. And that is from someone who really doesn't enjoy recoil.

I.G.B.

 

[Schleprok62]

Just to give a visual...

7mm-08 Rem

.280 Rem (a.k.a. 7mm Remington Express)

Disclaimer:
The photo's are not to scale... but good enough to see the differences...

 

[steelhead]

Nematocyst-870,

You need to forget about firearms for awhile and seriously look into getting yourself a girlfriend . You're cracking me up with all the fine hairs you are splitting.

Here's what you need to do. Buy yourself a Savage 11F or Stevens 200 in .308 or 7mm-08. Then, for another $45 -$70, buy yourself a "take off" Savage/Stevens factory barrel in .243 Win.. Then swap barrels if you find the recoil too much in the original caliber. The Savage actions are extremely easy for the "home gunsmith" to swap out barrels. All you need is a vice, barrel nut wrench, and headspace gauges. By doing this, you can chamber any round based on the .308 (358 Win., 338 Federal (338-08), 260 Remington, 7MM-08, .308, .243, etc.) without having to change the bolt head or make any other mod's other than the easy barrel switch.

Pull the trigger and GitRdone.

 

[AStone]

Nematocyst-870,

You need to forget about firearms for awhile and seriously look into getting yourself a girlfriend

Well, I see you're in my neck o' the woods, so if you know of any 'girl gunners', ask them to be in touch and we'll see where it goes.

You're cracking me up with all the fine hairs you are splitting.

This has actually become more for me than just buying a gun that will work for my needs. It's become an interesting and enjoyable (from my perspective, even though I think it bothers others) learning experience. I can't tell you how much cool stuff I've learned about .30-06, .308, .270, 7mm08 & .243 in the last couple of months in this and other threads. If I hadn't asked such hair-splitting questions, I'd not have gained this much knowledge so quickly.

You have to try to understand this from my perspective as a scientist who teaches systems theory for a living. In systems theory, those "hairs", or even split hairs, can make a HUGE difference in outcome. It's the old "straw that broke the camel's back" phenomenon.

And like I've said before, I'd much rather split hairs to see what's inside now than after I've paid $600 for a gun & significant range time, then having to try to decide what next.

Still, your suggestion about the Savage IS a good one. Make no mistake.

The problem for me is, I've handled several Savages, including the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage (16FHSS; regardless of caliber, I want SS & synth furniture; that much I know for sure). Even though they're clearly good guns, they don't feel right for me. In particular, I don't like the feeling of the fore end. The Tikka & Remington's have a much more natural feeling when I pick them up, aim, etc. My hand fits it better, says, "yeah, this feels right", just like the first time I picked up my Kahr K9. {Edited to add: specifically, the Savage has a larger, more "blocky" fore end, where as the Tikka (especially) has a smaller diameter, more cylindrical fore end that I find works better with my smaller hands, offers a better, more ergonomic [for me] grip.}

Then again, maybe I'm splitting hairs about the importance of fit & feeling.

(NOT).

Nem

 

[Preacherman]

the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage

Is this similar to "going Postal"?

 

[AStone]

"the one that I'd buy if I'm going Savage"

Is this similar to "going Postal"?

<first confusion, then LOL when I got it, followed by significant chuckling>

Yeah, somethin' like that.

 

[AStone]

Stock fit test

BTW, P'man, I tried out your suggested 'stock fit test' at the gun store yesterday. Worked great. All the rifles I'm looking at - Tikka, Rem 700 & Savage - 'passed the test' (with appropriate recognition that was just a preliminary test, and that the more thorough one comes with shooting).

The only rifle I'd like also to try that I haven't found yet is a Remington M7. I don't think I'm going to go with a 20" barrel, but would like to try one just for grins.

 

[steelhead]

Personal fit/ergonomics is extremely important. If you don't like the feel of the Savage then move on. Stocks, however, can easily be replaced and I would anyways if I got the Savage syn stock.

Asking and learning is good. However, you only have theoretical knowledge (based on proffered subjective experiences) at this point. Eventually, you need to go out and "do".

You won't find an answer until you start with a personal benchmark and base of personal experience. You say you currently like the feel of the Tikka and the Remington. This is based on "you" actually feeling how they felt in your hand. Others may disagree but this is how "you" feel about it from actual personal experience. However, on the other hand, it may turn out you don't like the way they shoot after you dropped $600+. There are no absolutes.

"And like I've said before, I'd much rather split hairs to see what's inside now than after I've paid $600 for a gun & significant range time, then having to try to decide what next."

You are misguided if you think you can prevent that from happening. Heck, I've bought multiple copies of the same firearm - only to find out that some shot great while others had serious issues. If you think you can cover all the variables (on the internet), and then buy the perfect rifle, you are sorely mistaken. Not a flame - just reality.

It's obvious you are new to shooting and don't have much experience with firearms. That's cool and I am not flaming you. We all started at exactly the same point (JMB excluded ). But take some advice from someone who is a little older and BTDT. You need to either purchase a used firearm (so the financial impact isn't so great that you can not purchase another) or join a club and shoot other people's rifles.

Your posts don't bother me other than, at this point, I think you are spinning your wheels.

How far are you from Portland? If you are close, I might be able to help you with the "shooting other people's guns" part.

As for girls, I've been married too long to help out in that arena. Just imagine a dog, locked behind a screen door, looking out into the neighborhood .

 

[AStone]

Asking and learning is good. However, you only have theoretical knowledge (based on proffered subjective experiences) at this point. Eventually, you need to go out and "do".

Hey, Steelhead, thanks for your thoughts. I don't disagree substantially with what you wrote, only slightly.

I've been doing my homework on this gun for a couple of months now. In fact, I started reading and asking questions about the calibers of interest before I even picked a gun up. I wanted a certain level of knowledge before entering my gun store to look and ask questions.

After lots and lots of reading & Q&A, I've now seriously started to look, feel, ask some final questions.

My next step - planned for quite sometime now, not original with your suggestion (but thanks for offering it anyway), is to spend some time at the range with my other guns (870P, SW 642, K9, CZ 452 - all relatively new) and keep my eyes out for a Tikka, Rem 700 and/or Savage in calibers of interest. I'm quite sure that some of the nice folks out at my range will let me fire off one or two.

Plus, one of the guys at my gun shop has made it clear that he'd be willing to take me out to the range to shoot a few *once I could narrow the choices a bit* in terms of brands & calibers. That's what I've been doing, gaining this 'theoretical' knowledge. Regardless of any protestations from others, I'm perfectly happy with the process by which I've gotten this far. Not being obstinate, just speaking my truth.

As for being "new to shooting and don't have much experience with firearms", that's not accurate. I grew up with guns, mostly .22, shotgun, an 1865 Springfield in .58,& a Marlin 336 in .35 caliber. I've owned at least one gun almost continuously since I was 9. (I'm now 55.) {There was one ten month period during doctoral studies, while trying to exist below the poverty line, when I was gunless. A guy trying to break into my studio ended that gunless phase permanently.)

What I'm new to is bolt action, and how 7mm & .30-06 relate to my more familiar ground of the .35 (and .30-30 that I had some experience with).

You are misguided if you think you can prevent that from happening. Heck, I've bought multiple copies of the same firearm - only to find out that some shot great while others had serious issues. If you think you can cover all the variables (on the internet), and then buy the perfect rifle, you are sorely mistaken. Not a flame - just reality.

Again, we agree. I have never had any illusions about making a perfect decision. Life doesn't work that way, as we all know.

However, having been just the opposite as a kid - making snap decisions without thinking things through - I've finally arrived at a system that works well for me, informed by the way I did my doctoral dissertation in ecology: pay attention to details. The devil is in the details. One may fail regardless, but by paying attention to the details, one significantly lowers the probability of failure. I've found this to be true in starting my business, rock climbing (e.g., the detail of tying in your belay), and buying guns (vehicles, professional sound systems, computers...).

I've used exactly the same process (see multiple THR threads by me in shotguns, handguns, revolvers, holsters, & (.22) rifles} in buying my other current set of guns (see above), and I haven't made a bad decision yet. I love them all, with no complaints. Can't say the same will happen with this rifle, but it's a testable hypothesis. And, as I said before, I've thoroughly enjoyed the process. It's been an education in itself. As a professional, independent educator, learning is what drives me. The process is at least as important as the outcome, and the latter will benefit from the former.

So, again, thanks - sincerely - for your advice, but excuse me while I continue to do things my way, at my pace.

As for girls, I've been married too long to help out in that arena. Just imagine a dog, locked behind a screen door, looking out into the neighborhood.

Oh, I feel your pain.

Yeah, being single has it's downsides, but my screen door (and gate) is always open, and I'm wearing no chain. Wolf, wolf.

Nem

 

[NMshooter]

Learned a lot through the empirical process myself.

After years and years of shooting, dozens of rifles, and a hill sized pile of ammo, I have learned a little, and had a lot of fun doing it.

We will not discuss the cost of this process, you just do not want to know...

Please keep in mind that bolt action rifles are very easy to customize, you can even get your choice of adjustable stocks, though they tend to be a bit heavier and much more expensive.

If I were looking for something similar to what you seem to be looking for, and I had someone else's money I would get a Kimber rifle. They make a very nice lightweight sporter in several of the calibers you mentioned. Far more money than you intend to spend.

Consider what action you would be the happiest with, get that rifle, and change things as needed. As you shoot more you may end up changing the rifle to suit you in ways you are not considering right now.

And sometimes the trip is at least as much fun as the destination.

 

[AStone]

If I were looking for something similar to what you seem to be looking for, and I had someone else's money I would get a Kimber rifle. They make a very nice lightweight sporter in several of the calibers you mentioned. Far more money than you intend to spend.

Dude, I heard that.

Looked ...no, lusted at them again last night on line.

Same for Sako's. <sigh>

Someday, maybe, when I become rich and famous as a systems science teacher.

Nem

 

[steelhead]

Cheers and tight groups!

PS: Go Seahawks!!!

 

[AStone]

Cheers and tight groups!

PS: Go Seahawks!!!

Ditto to both (tight groups & Seahawks).

I may actually stay home from the range and watch that game. Even though I'm not much of a football fan, this is the creme de la creme.

Nem

 

[itgoesboom]

Well Nem,

I don't have any of the rifles that you are thinking about, but if you wanted to take some shots through a .30-06 Weatherby Vanguard, I can offer that up.

Oh, and I **might**, just know a girl. Former teacher, about that age....might be tough to set up though. Mothers in Laws are like that.

I.G.B.

 

[AStone]

I don't have any of the rifles that you are thinking about, but if you wanted to take some shots through a .30-06 Weatherby Vanguard, I can offer that up.

Thanks, IGB. And to Steelhead, also, for offering to set me up for some shooting.

Steelhead, I forgot to address that earlier. I'm two hours from Portland. If I can't arrange it here, via my gun shop, I may take you up on your offer.

IGB, where are you? In Oregon? PM is ok.

Oh, and I **might**, just know a girl. Former teacher, about that age....might be tough to set up though. Mothers in Laws are like that.

Well, you know us guys. We like younger 'girls'. I'm still looking for a 40-something.

Yeah, yeah, I know: good luck.

Nem

 

[AStone]

Please keep in mind that bolt action rifles are very easy to customize, you can even get your choice of adjustable stocks, though they tend to be a bit heavier and much more expensive.

After rereading, I realized that heavy could be a good thing.

Expensive I can deal with. (I drive a diesel Ford. I own a quality professional sound system.
I live in America, which has some of the most expensive medical care on Earth.)

But heavy could be good.

If da rifle kicks too hard, put a heavier stock on it to slow down ze recoil.

No?

Nem

 

[Sulaco]

If you have it narrowed down to .308 and are now deciding between the Remington 700 and the Tikka T3, I say go with the Remington.

I have owned both and prefer the Remington for a few reasons;

The Tikka, while lighter, is also harder to hold steady and has more felt recoil in a given chambering when compared to the 700.

The Tikka, while inexpensive up front (sortof), gets quite expensive the first time you have to buy scope mounts, extra magazines, stock spacers, etc. And now that Beretta owns Tikka, it is even harder to get parts in the first place. I am also not real sure what will happen with them in the future.

The Tikka bolt shroud is pretty cheap plastic which is easily damaged with strong solvents (Butch's Bore Shine muffed mine up pretty good).

The Remington is a perfect fit for me. I like the longer and straighter pistol grip and the flat butt pad.

Also, Remington parts and accessories, both OEM and aftermarket are like buying parts for a small block Chevy, everybody and their brother makes and carries them. And any gunsmith worth his salt knows a Remington 700 action backwards and forwards.

Just my opinion and probably why my new bolt action 30-06 will be a 700.

Of course, Remington seems to be out of the .308 game now so good luck!

 

[AStone]

Of course, Remington seems to be out of the .308 game now so good luck!

Saluco, some excellent points there. Thanks as always.

Your very valid last sentence is one of several reasons that my .308 decision has been called into question ... again.

(I can hear gnashing of teeth among some thread members; "Just buy a damn gun! Quit thinking about it!!!!

Busy day; back to work with me.

Nem

 

[Schleprok62]

Nem,

Which 700 model did you decide on again? ( I don't feel like rereading the entire thread... LOL )

The 7mm-08 is gaining in popularity (at least here in Oklahoma - according to several of the gun dealers here - they can't seem to keep 7mm-08's in stock) so ammo choices and availability is likely to increase in the coming months. Recoil should be in the same ballpark as the 30-30...

I'm looking at the 700 SPS in 7mm-08 for myself as a hunting rifle, and the Stevens 200 for a modifyable range rifle... haven't decided on chamber yet, probably .270 Win and swap to a .280 Rem barrel which should make for minimal other mods to make it work. Then from there, upgraded trigger assy., replace stock, etc... no particular order, just as money permits...

 

[AStone]

Nem,

Which 700 model did you decide on again? ( I don't feel like rereading the entire thread... LOL )

Schleprok & I have had a very interesting PM discussion about this topic in the last couple of days. I've answered his question above, but just to be complete, I'll do it here as well.

Of the Remingtons, I'm most interested in the 700 SPS, like you.

In fact, I even got to handle one yesterday at GI Joe's. They've got a Rem 700 SPS in .270 set up with a Leupold VX-I scope for $725.

The rifle felt very nice. It's right up there with Tikka in terms of the way it feels to me, plus it's already got that R3 pad installed.

Schleprok & I have been discussing the virtues of .270 v. 7mm-08 for a few days, based mostly on comparison of those calibers (and others more in line with the title of this thread), on the Remington Ballistics page.

Very interesting reading. Very interesting indeed.

As a result, I'm leaning back in the direction pointing away from both .308 & .30-06 again. I don't discount that they're great cartridges, but once again, I don't think they're what I'm looking for in my first centerfire bolt rifle.

Nem

 

[Infidel]

T Well, you know us guys. We like younger 'girls'. I'm still looking for a 40-something.

Yeah, me, too. About 19 years old.

 

[AStone]

By Jove, I think I've found my rifle

Thread here.

Thanks for all your help.

Nem