.30-06 vs .308

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Hi Bart, not following you logic, explain what I have missed here.

SAAMI is hardly rubber ruler so I checked against the link you posted. In both cases, CUP and Piezo methods of pressure measurement, the 30-06 has slightly lower pressures on a 180gr bullet for a 280fps gain in velocity. This is clearly tabulated so from a terminal performance perspective the 30-06 is ahead and clearly it has to be as you can pack in more powder.

I can't argue on cost effectiveness and recoil as the .308's have the edge. I too like the shorter stroke, but that is not a free lunch. As to whether is will kill average sized game equally I still do not argue, larger antelope I would want more assurance. As to if the .308 is an inherently more accurate chambering I probably cannot argue.

What I do argue it that the 30-06 has more legs and this you cannot argue, certainly not from your reference SAAMI document.

So you leave me confused.
 
Andrew Leigh said:
SAAMI is hardly rubber ruler so I checked against the link you posted. In both cases, CUP and Piezo methods of pressure measurement, the 30-06 has slightly lower pressures on a 180gr bullet for a 280fps gain in velocity.
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That's true because the highest velocity with 180's in a 30-06 case was made with a slower powder than the powder used for its slowest velocity. The only velocity for the 308 was made with the same powder.

I first noticed some cartridges list a few incremental velocities for a given bullet weight years ago. I called SAAMI then asked why. The rep said such cartridges' bullets were tested with dIfferent powders and charge weights but all at the same max average pressure. He had no explanation as to why powder data wasn't listed to explain the different velocities with equal pressures. He did say that the heavier powder charges for a given bullet and pressure have more area in pressure curves that cause the 30-06 to shoot a given bullet faster than the 308 with the same powder and peak pressure. Slower powders than what was used for 180's in the 308 will shoot them faster with the same peak pressure.
 
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Todays 308 loads beat 1950's era 30-06 loads by about 100 fps
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I found this out yesterday as I watched my .308 handloads destroy some 30-06 factory (Rem Core-lokt 180's) loads. It wasn't even close actually.

However, I expect my 30-06 handloads to best the .308 by at least 100 fps.
 
Newtosavage said:
I found this out yesterday as I watched my .308 handloads destroy some 30-06 factory (Rem Core-lokt 180's) loads. It wasn't even close actually.

However, I expect my 30-06 handloads to best the .308 by at least 100 fps.
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I don't understand the relevance of todays .308 loads beating 1950's 30-06 loads, unless it was to prove how powder and bullet technology has advanced bullet terminal performance.
 
Andrew Leigh said:
I don't understand the relevance of todays .308 loads beating 1950's 30-06 loads, unless it was to prove how powder and bullet technology has advanced bullet terminal performance.
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The relevance is that the .30-06's hunting reputation was made with those old loads. If they're good enough to get the job done, then clearly .308 is as well, since it can exactly duplicate them. That's the thing about ballistic twins - you can't really love the performance of one and hate the other.
 
So if the '06 actually bests the 308, (even marginally) then the '06 bests the 308. And instead of arguing old loads in '06 vs new loads in 308, why don't we argue new vs new. Truth is I could really care less. But at least argue apples to apples as far as decades go. And really, how many people here, out of the ~17,000 members, shoot 220-240's from their '06 or 308? It seems we're arguing for the sake of arguing. 300fps difference? That's a fairly legitimate difference. 100-150 with max pressure and oversized (read heavy) bullets? C'mon.
 
Llama Bob said:
The relevance is that the .30-06's hunting reputation was made with those old loads. If they're good enough to get the job done, then clearly .308 is as well, since it can exactly duplicate them. That's the thing about ballistic twins - you can't really love the performance of one and hate the other.
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You make a valid point.
 
My point is that what people were satisfied with being "more than enough gun" from their 30-06's 40 years ago, is less than what can be achieved today with modern .308 loads and bullets. That's all I'm saying.

If I didn't believe in "apples to apples" I wouldn't have a reason to own both a .308 and a 30-06. ;)
 
I neither love nor hate either but I think that the matter has more inputs than simply .308 vs. 30-06.

Often calibres are acquired against very specific criteria, which although right for the time my be less than right for later.

When I bought my 30-06 it was to be my ONLY rifle and dedicated to brush style hunting, shorter ranges, heavier bullet. As stated I wanted to be able to shoot from Springbok to Eland. So bearing this in mind I was offered numerous opinions by fan boy clubs (and I do not mean this in a condescending manner). After much consideration I discounted the .270, 7x57, 7x64, .308 as viable contenders. At the time my criteria was very specific, if not flawed. The 30-06 allowed me to load up this wide variety of bullets weights .......... in my ignorance my 30-06 was a versatile death ray. I had spent many a year in the military shooting 7.62mm (many, many thousands of rounds) and for some odd reason I saw this as a "military" round rather than a hunting round ....... yup ...... go figure. It must be stated that this was my first rifle purchase and I had yet to reload one single bullet so to be fair I was green on both ends of the stick.

So did I load from 110 to 220gr, nope. I did however load 165's and 180's and from feel point of view the rifle just "felt" better with 180's. Shortly after (18 months) the 30-06 purchase I acquired a 6.5mm Swede. Now a little more educated on rifles and having hand loaded for 18 months I was still green but slightly better informed. So now my philosophy moved from having one rifle shooting "all" bullet weights to selecting a desired bullet weight and terminal performance for a range of animals and then finding a calibre that met that criteria. So having 130 and 140gr covered in the 6.5mm, 165 and 180gr covered in the 30-06 I was left with a hole on the upper end which was filled with the .375 which rounded off my requirement with 260 and 300gr. Utopia one would think.

Well in reality, given the benefit of hindsight and for my specific purposes I only "need" the 6.5mm and the .375. A "small plains animal" rifle and a heavy hitter for Eland and Buffalo should the hunting gods smile down on me. If I had known now what I knew then, I would have a .308 in my safe and not the 30-06. But I am not unhappy to have the 30-06. The problem is that either way a .308 in my house would get as much use as the 30-06, precious little. For my purposes the .375 is king and the 30-06 calibre has become the queen, the safe queen, as would the .308.

So at times it is not a as simple as a .308 vs. a 30-06 as there are too many other criteria which also change over time..
 
.30-06 vs .308

I guess I fail to see the Vs in this? What one need ask themselves is what does the .308 Winchester offer over and above the 30-06 Springfield and what do I want a cartridge to do? Will the .308 Winchester meet my expectations or should I opt, in my situation, for the 30-06 Springfield. Looking at both cartridges what will the 30-06 give me the 308 won't and do I need that? Make a decision and move on the decision. Really it does not get any simpler. There is no versus anything as any person with a shooting interest should be able to read and interpret ballistic data.

Ron
 
Based on my needs from a 30 cal. centerfire cartridge and my expectations I could go with either and be happy. If I need more out of a 30 cal. my 300 WSM is ready to go. If I decide I need less there's the .30-30, 7mm-08, 6.5x55, 25-06, etc.... Plus, I already have .308 & .30-06 dies so with either one I could get busy and work up some nice loads.
 
The two are too close to call a winner. I think a 30 06 vs. 6.5 CM would be more interesting.
 
There is no versus anything as any person with a shooting interest should be able to read and interpret ballistic data.
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I completely agree.

My personal target # was 1500 ft.lbs. of energy at 500 yards for hunting elk. Tough to do with a .308 but not difficult with the '06, so the decision to add the '06 was pretty easy.
 
I believe the .308 cartridge to be an excellent platform for 6mm, 6.5mm and 7mm bullets. For 7.62 caliber I'd rather have 30-06. End of story for me. I'm also starting to like anything BartB. doesnt like and vice versa.
 
cdb1 said:
I've read many of Andrew Leigh's posts on Gunsite South Africa and enjoy them.
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Thanks CDB. We too enjoy your contribution on our side of the pond as well.

I really like both forums as they are both well moderated. Shooters are remarkably similar around the world and we all share the same ideals and though processes. One of which is the insatiable desire to compare similar cartridges and to extol the often very slight differences between the two.

But as Nature Boy so aptly said, he loves both cartridges and why should he not, they need not be mutually exclusive.
 
Bart, re "stiffness": Thinking about it, the only force acting on the receiver would be from the bolt lugs. Straight back, so odds are no twisting moment induced. The short action would be stiffer, but that's irrelevant.

As near as I can tell, for a deer/elk hunter who doesn't reload, .308 = .30-'06 as near as makes no nevermind.

Nap time.

:D
 
Art,

Barrels twist from bullets pushing against the rifling lands as they accelerate through the barrel. I and others can see scope reticles twist left shooting 308 Win and bigger ammo by keeping our aiming eye open looking at the outside edge of a reticle when firing.

As barrels whip vertically when fired because their bore and therefore recoil thrust axis is above the rifle's center of mass. They're screwed into receivers and therefore bend receivers in the same axis. Sometimes, barrel muzzle axis swings up to over 1 degree before the bullets leave the barrel.

And the more the butt plate contact point to your shoulder is below bore axis is, the more the whole rifle rises

That in turn also bends the scope mounted on the receiver.

Wood and plastic stocks bend too.

It all happens before the bullet leaves the barrel. The twist is small; a few degrees. Right hand twists keep right hand threaded barrel shanks tight against receivers.

Have you seen any of the videos showing this happening?

http://www.varmintal.com/aeste.htm
 
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You can easily observe the torque from the rifling in a lighter gun just by shooting free recoil. If you don't have a flat forend and rest the gun will turn in the rest.
 
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