30-30 shooting sideways bullets

[Jinzoningen80]

So my Marlin 30-30 with a microgrooved barrel shot fine 2 months ago. I put a decent group downrange at 100m and I could hit a 200m Steel popper. Now, in preperation for hunting season, I pick me up some of that hot new Hornady LeverEvolution ammo (150gr.) 6 boxes in fact (due to a black-friday ammo deal.) I was extremely disappointed when I was unable to hit paper at 50m. So i move up to 25 m and see my holes all over the paper. Upon closer inspection, I discover the rounds are impacting sideways!!

Thinking it is the bullet weight, I try Winchester 180gr... SAME PROBLEM!

To confirm that something didn't happen to my gun, I fired the Remington 150gr again and it shot just fine.

Has anyone ever experienced this before? My gun ONLY likes remington ammo. Could something be wrong?

 

[Geno]

That's called a keyhole impact. They're tumbling. But why? Could be too slow of twist for the bullet weight. Could be the rifling or muzzle became damaged. I have usually seen this with bullet instability due to twist-rate.

Edit:

150 Gr? That shouldn't keyhole!!! Dang!

Doc2005

 

[BEARMAN]

It is probably the Microgroove barrel not gripping the bullet at the velocities they are at. I suggest you stick with what works in your gun and not be sucked in by the "WE can make a long range elephant gun out of your .30-30 lever action hype". You have one of the best .30-30 lever actions going, don't expect to make it more than it is.

 

[Geno]

I wonder if the micro-grooves have become fouled. Look at the first bullet impact. One is perfect. Looks like a second one went in half-keyholed. Then, all subsequent are keyholed.

That indicates that something is going afoul. No pun intended. Clean it very well, then try some traditional Remington rounds.

Bet it's fouled to Hades.

Doc2005

 

[Kimber1911_06238]

I'm with Doc, seems like the barrel is badly fouled. If not, don't worry. You already found a load that shoots very well!!!

 

[Jinzoningen80]

It's not fouling. The rifle was cleaned thoroughly. The first "perfect" shot was actually not from this rifle. LeverEvolution fired from a clean rifle tumbled. I initially thought it was the twist-rate not liking the bullet weight, but as I said, it loves the 150gr remington, but hates the 150gr Hornady. The good Remington group was fired at the end of the day with the rifle as dirty as it got. Thanks for the replies so far. Any other suggestions?

 

[Roswell 1847]

with a microgrooved barrel

And

some of that hot new

Theres your problem.

The microgroove rifling just isn't biting ino the jacket materil well enough for a hot load.
I've only had one Keyholing problem with a rifle in good condition and that was some Yugoslavian .303 military ammo that fired like target ammo from a five groove barrel but the jackets were too hard to be griped properly by a two groove barrel which shot everything else run through it , including Chi Com AP bullets, with great precision.
Undersized bullets can also be a factor with shallow microgrooves but I'm figuring hard jackets.

A far too soft jacket can also be a problem , Too hard the bullet skids, too soft the jacketing material strips.
Think worn out snow tires.

Either way just stick with ammo types you know will stabilize.

 

[tkendrick]

I love Marlins. I have three of them. But their Micro-Groove system sucks.

You can't shoot non-jacketed lead.

You can't shoot Sabots, especially plastic ones. Remember the Accelorator from a few years ago? Cleaning that gun was a problem, IIRC my grandson learned some new words that day.

Looks like you can add the new Hornady line to the equation.

 

[Millwright]

Seems like you've got a lot of good answers !! I'd opt for a super good cleaning of the barrel and some more range time, but I suspect that "micro-groove" barrel ain't gonna cut it with the new ammo..... >MW

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

You have some of the best pictures of keyholing I ever seen. If there is a locksmith somewhere? He could use it in his office.

 

[AStone]

My sense is this:
the hot Hornady stuff is loaded
for the newer, longer barreled XLR Marlin rifles.

Bigga bada boom.

In a traditional 336,
just shoot the stuff
it's shot for decades:
regular 150 and 170 gr.
They're fine to 100 - 150 m.

And, remind me, please:
Why would anyone who
doesn't shoot > one box/wk
try to shoot a deer beyond 150 m?

 

[ugaarguy]

It's not fouling. The rifle was cleaned thoroughly. The first "perfect" shot was actually not from this rifle. LeverEvolution fired from a clean rifle tumbled. I initially thought it was the twist-rate not liking the bullet weight, but as I said, it loves the 150gr remington, but hates the 150gr Hornady. The good Remington group was fired at the end of the day with the rifle as dirty as it got. Thanks for the replies so far. Any other suggestions?

Are you using a powder solvent only? Or are you using a good strong copper solvent as well? It's possible there's some copper fouling in there.

On the other hand, a look at the Marlin website does show that the 336 XLR barrels are Ballard rifled rather than Micro-Groove rifled.

 

[walking arsenal]

Looks like a ballistic game of Battle ship.

 

[JustsayMo]

Hornady did have a recall on 30-30 ammo a while back, http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=439

Also isn't all the 30-30 LeverEvolution ammo 160 grains?

I've had bullets tumble out of my 30-06 and 45-70. Both were the result of (barely < .002") undersized bullets.

My latest 336 has the Microgroove barrel and it shoots cast bullets (sized .310") better than any jacketed bullet I've tried so far. I haven't tried the LE in it ammo yet. It did shoot well in my 1895GS Guide Gun though.

 

[Z_Infidel]

Yes, the LeverEvolution .30-30 ammo uses 160 gr bullets. I shoot it exclusively in my 336XLR, but I shoot conventional ammo in my 336C. The XLR has Ballard-style rifling.

 

[ZeSpectre]

LeverEvolution out of my recent model (c.2006) 336A seem to work just fine. (I've only fired about 10 rounds of it though).

 

[rcmodel]

#1. Try some Copper Solvent in the barrel and see if the patches come out BLUE!

#2. Call Hornady and see what they have to say about it.
(1-800-338-3220)
Have the lot number off the ammo box flap handy so you can tell them what lot it is from.

I can't think it won't work, or that they don't have a disclamer on every box of LEVERevolution if it won't shoot in a Micro-Groove barrel.
Theres a gazillion of them out there!


rcmodel

 

[ugaarguy]

#1. Try some Copper Solvent in the barrel and see if the patches come out BLUE!

If the copper solvent soaked patches do come out blue it's a sure indicator of copper fouling as rcmodel alludes to. If that's the case remember that copper is one of the main metals used in making bronze so a bronze bore brush may not work as well as other materials if you need to scrub out heavy copper deposits (the copper solvent will attack the copper in the bronze and start breaking down the brush). I've had good results with the soft steel mesh tornado brushes, but nylon also works well for this application.

 

[AStone]

This is an interesting story ...

 

[jacobhh]

Just fouling?

I'm skeptical. I have no experience with LeverRevolution but
it looks like pic #2 is Winchester factory 180. I'd take a real
close look at your muzzle then slug the bore.
The only time I had keyhoing that bad was in a 110 year old
'73 Win. Measure the Remington ammo and see if it's just a
little bit bigger diameter than the others.

 

[AStone]

Hornady LeverEvolution ammo (150gr.)

Wait, this just clicked: you mean 160 gr, right?

All the .30.30 LE I've seen so far - including the box in my cabinet - is 160 gr.

Is that a typo, or is Hornady now producing a 150 gr LE?

 

[jacobhh]

30 30 Marlin? Sure you didn't use a cookie cutter?

 

[neolithic hunter]

looks like your shooting 30-30 rounds in a 32 winchester. looks like the bullets are undersized for your bore. i would check the bullet diameter and the grove diameter of you barrel. marlin may have put an over-sized tube on your rifle.

 

[Jinzoningen80]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinzoningen80
Hornady LeverEvolution ammo (150gr.)

Wait, this just clicked: you mean 160 gr, right?

All the .30.30 LE I've seen so far - including the box in my cabinet - is 160 gr.

Is that a typo, or is Hornady now producing a 150 gr LE?

Nematocyst, you are correct. The Hornady is in fact 160gr. The Remington is 150 and i just picked up a box of Rem 170gr HP to test. Those results should follow within a week. Just to clarify, the rifle IS a 30-30, and it shoots the remington 150gr core-lokt just fine. I also picked up some copper-fouling remover to rule that possibility out. Update to follow.....

 

[Roswell 1847]

BTW
I handloaded some .30-30 bullets pulled from old ammo a friend had found into his Chinese .762X54 casings we'd pulled the bullets from. I used the Chi Com bullets and powder for some experiments in my .303.
Anyway the bullets (over 48 gr of Win 760) pulled from the .30-30 rounds shot with good accuracy in the Sporterized Russian Tula we tried them in.

The Old Russian bore had to be .312 at the minimum and probably .314, if it ran true to type.
It was also the most worn out of any rifle I've fired, thats why the mild handloads.

My conclusion is that standard bullets for the .30-30 are designed to upset or slug out when fired, filling out the rifling in even worn or over sized bores.
The shallow microgroove rifling works fine with bullets of this type.